I would like to hear everyone opinions on this two amps other than the difference in power.. The TC Electronics RH450 vs Genz Benz Shuttle 9.
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TC Electronics RH450 vs Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0
- Thread starter otto B
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Haven't played through the Shuttle 9, but I did own a Shuttle 6.
The RH450 is much better all around than the Shuttle IMO. Better tone and although it is rated at less power it seems to have much more than the Shuttle 6. The tone is fuller and the EQ is very flexible. I found the EQ on the Shuttle was used to find a usable tone whereas the EQ on the RH450 is more towards finding YOUR tone. And although the RH450 has a tube flavor to it, it is not as glassy as the Shuttle. The RH450 also has more punch than the Shuttle. Overall I can not think of one aspect of the Shuttle I liked over the RH450. Hope that helps.
Yea that help. The shuttle 9.0 has a little bit more lows than the shuttle 6.0, but as to the EQ is still the same. The one thing i still don't get is the watts on the TC Electronics, i see it has 450 Watts but at what ohms? is it 450 watts@ 2ohm, 4ohm, or 8ohms?
450 at 4ohms but can be run at 2ohms with some cabs. The Rh450 won't get as Hifi as the genz benz 6.0 but does have more headroom some how at 450W. I think the 9.0 would have just as much. I also think you could find a good punchy tone with Genz Benz by dialing the low mids in. and you can switch on the preset tone shapers to go to a instant HiFi funk setting. I moved on from my 6.0 to explore the micro world and to find more headroom. You would think that the 9.0 has more headroom than the rh450 but having tried the 6.0 and the rh450 it's hard to say. The 6.0 is even close to the rh450.
I thunk you can use the GB tone shape buttons to get multiple 'preset like' tones to switch from but the rh450 is far more configurable. the 9.0 is smaller & lighter but the rh450 is heavy enough not to fly off a cab. The rh450 spectracomp is so far dissapointing to me and the 6.0' tube was less "tuby" than the rh450 + a bit of tubetone. (though I do thing the GB pre is tastefully subtle). thought the rh450 has a more powerful eq, if you have a 3 band parametric preamp it's more eq than you need, but the GB eq may not be enough for some. All IMHO. Hope that helps.
Edit: Also, funk tones out of the GB were easy and natural. Both finger funk and GREAT slap funk. Maybe it's the super powerful eq on the RH but it's hard for me to tune in as funk of finger and slap tones. You can bargin a GB 9.0 to 700 and a RH450 to 800 brand new "A" stock. GB spanks TC in service, just read about bongo's troubles with TC. Right now I have a two week old rh450 I'm giving it a good run before I think of trading for my next micro. The 9.0 is next on my list.
I thunk you can use the GB tone shape buttons to get multiple 'preset like' tones to switch from but the rh450 is far more configurable. the 9.0 is smaller & lighter but the rh450 is heavy enough not to fly off a cab. The rh450 spectracomp is so far dissapointing to me and the 6.0' tube was less "tuby" than the rh450 + a bit of tubetone. (though I do thing the GB pre is tastefully subtle). thought the rh450 has a more powerful eq, if you have a 3 band parametric preamp it's more eq than you need, but the GB eq may not be enough for some. All IMHO. Hope that helps.
Edit: Also, funk tones out of the GB were easy and natural. Both finger funk and GREAT slap funk. Maybe it's the super powerful eq on the RH but it's hard for me to tune in as funk of finger and slap tones. You can bargin a GB 9.0 to 700 and a RH450 to 800 brand new "A" stock. GB spanks TC in service, just read about bongo's troubles with TC. Right now I have a two week old rh450 I'm giving it a good run before I think of trading for my next micro. The 9.0 is next on my list.
Don't let the low wattage rating scare you.. this head is loud and punchy, and will BURY a Genz 6.0 (from direct experience).
I assume the 9 is at least as 'loud' or louder (haven't heard it) as the RH450 (and most say that it has more balls than the thin sounding Shuttle 6, which would be a good thing), but the feature set of the RH450 just puts it miles ahead of the Genz stuff IMO. I find the voicing filters on the 6/9 totally unusable (too extreme to be of any use whatsover for tone sculpting IMO), leaving just a three band EQ. I would think the Shuttle Max 6 would be a better 'apples to apples' comparison with the RH450 regarding flexibility and features, and the RH450 still comes out miles ahead IMO. With the three presets, the RH450 is really a three channel head, and the tuner, the compressor, and the tube emulation are all top notch IMO and IME.
Wattage of the RH450 is 450 into 4, and the typical 275 or so into 8. It is not safe for 2ohm operation (neither is the Shuttle). Both use that kind of 'tube amp emulation power amp limiting', but the TC's execution of that design is MILES ahead of the Genz execution, making it sound and even feel a bit like a tube amp when really pushed, with very little quashing or clamping, even at stupid high volumes (this is probably a moot point on the more powerful 9 versus the 6).
The RH450 is voiced to be warm, punchy and somewhat tubey (versus the much brighter Genz voicing). If you dig more modern, hi fi tones, TC makes a wider voiced, more modern sounding model (deeper lows, sizzlier highs) called the Staccato... same power and feature set, just a different 'baked in' voicing.
I have a few clips up of the RH450/RS210 on Youtube if you search 'Kjungbass'... going from fingerstyle to slap with the head set virtually flat. That might be useful to you.
This is spot on, +1.
I also had a direct comparison experience. Same basses to test, (Stingray 3 band EQ and 2008 USA Precision) same cab (Tecamp M212) and virtually the same time, bar a few days or so swapping over.
I bought the Shuttle 9.0, expecting a hell of a lot from the rave talkbass chat. The cust service is amazing, no fault there. I will add that TC have always responded to me also on here or via email.
The Shuttle 9.0 wasnt my thing. I didnt get on with the pre, despite following advice. I am the same as KJung, as in the presets on the Shuttle were not so useful for me. Its is very bright and zingy...but I found even comparing my MB LM3, the Stingray sounded amazing through the LM3 without eqing, but I could not get there with the 9.0. I also thought the 9.0 was a little too light for my uses! Volume wise, it didnt seem massively loud compared to the LM3 and definitely not that much louder than the RH450 which I received a few days later.
Then, a few days later the RH450 arrived in exchange, and I was stunned at how brilliant the amp is. It is like having three channels, and the EQ is fabulous. It feels very modern and robust...and a decent weight, (eg light but not really light!).
The tubetone is brilliant for me, the tuner works spot on, the compression has rave reviews but I havent used it as yet due to not having time to fiddle. The headphone plug in sounds very very sweet! This amp is loud...do not be fooled. It reacts similar to a tube amp as noted above.
I tend to prefer a rock n roll/vintage voiced amp...and the RH does that perfectly. It also can do more hifi tones as well if you want that...great for finger funk and slap.
Sound I would describe as warm and full, with amazing punch and the option of brilliant grit.
Can you tell I like it?
No disrespect to the Genz chaps...they have a lot of followers! The Shuttle 9.0 is tiny, and very light. I also thought the price was pretty good.
I was looking at both of these amps recently and ended up with the Shuttle 9.0. I wanted to get the RH450 but there were a couple of things holding me back. I guess I fall into more of the "hifi" camp than the "tubey" camp based on how those terms are being used. All the clips I heard of the RH450 had it aimed at the SVT type crowd. Tube grind in a smaller box. I've never been an SVT fan, much more in the old Trace Elliot camp so SVT in a little box wasn't appealing to me.
I forget the guy's forum name, but he did some clips comparing the RH450, Staccato '51 and the Shuttle 9.0. In those clips there was a low mid thing constantly present that I couldn't stand about the S51. I wanted to prefer the RH450 because of the buzz it has and its features, but I found myself liking the Shuttle 9.0 sounds better.
The EQ on the Shuttle 9.0 is very limited, but I like the sound of my bass. I've used it for the last 17 years for that reason. I don't really have the need to use drastic EQ settings at the amp to compensate for the bass itself. Typically, I set my EQs pretty flat and do any on the fly EQing from my bass when needed. So the three channel thing wasn't a big driver for me and I have a tuner I like on the floor anyway.
Finally the power was the main issue. I have an amp that puts out around 250 at 8 ohms, I needed more than that. The Shuttle 9.0's 500 watts @ 8ohms and 900 watts @ 4ohms was exactly what I needed for this amp as well. Not to mention I love that the GB 9.0 is 4lbs and I can put it in the front pocket of gig bag with my bass.
I forget the guy's forum name, but he did some clips comparing the RH450, Staccato '51 and the Shuttle 9.0. In those clips there was a low mid thing constantly present that I couldn't stand about the S51. I wanted to prefer the RH450 because of the buzz it has and its features, but I found myself liking the Shuttle 9.0 sounds better.
The EQ on the Shuttle 9.0 is very limited, but I like the sound of my bass. I've used it for the last 17 years for that reason. I don't really have the need to use drastic EQ settings at the amp to compensate for the bass itself. Typically, I set my EQs pretty flat and do any on the fly EQing from my bass when needed. So the three channel thing wasn't a big driver for me and I have a tuner I like on the floor anyway.
Finally the power was the main issue. I have an amp that puts out around 250 at 8 ohms, I needed more than that. The Shuttle 9.0's 500 watts @ 8ohms and 900 watts @ 4ohms was exactly what I needed for this amp as well. Not to mention I love that the GB 9.0 is 4lbs and I can put it in the front pocket of gig bag with my bass.
Nothing wrong with the Shuttle! Just to be clear, there is NOTHING I hate more than an SVT, and the RH450 is among my favorite heads. It can be clean and pure, but still punchy (as I assume you can hear in my clips) IMO. I agree though, the amazing thing is, it actually can also do the SVT thing!
And again, 'company rated power' can be quite misleading. The 8ohm performance of the RH450 HAMMERS (as I'm sure the Shuttle 9 does).
That being said, both the Shuttle and the RH450 are quite 'voiced' (versus, for example, the more neutral voicing of the EA or Markbass stuff), and if you like the way that makes your bass sound, I agree, lot's of EQ isn't needed. The Trace stuff had lots of voicing built in also IMO, although I still hear very little similarity between that voicing and the Genz stuff myself.
Personally I also have no affection for SVT or the typical SVT tone.
Yet I love the RH450 and I'm a fan of modern punchy fingerstyle tone rather than vintage tubey tone. Personally I've not used the Tubetone past 2-3 clicks which is about 'nil. You can dial the RH450 into an SVT type vibe, but I wouldn't consider it's goal to be an SVT type head. More people push the Markbass for that than the RH450 IMHO.
Not sure where the RH450 got put into a niche of tube sounding amps. The Tubetone is there if you want it, but it's completely at the players discression.
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Yet I love the RH450 and I'm a fan of modern punchy fingerstyle tone rather than vintage tubey tone. Personally I've not used the Tubetone past 2-3 clicks which is about 'nil. You can dial the RH450 into an SVT type vibe, but I wouldn't consider it's goal to be an SVT type head. More people push the Markbass for that than the RH450 IMHO.
Not sure where the RH450 got put into a niche of tube sounding amps. The Tubetone is there if you want it, but it's completely at the players discression.
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My feeling about this is that the RH450 is one of the few small amps that can actually somewhat emulate the tone and feel of an Ampeg type all tube amp (even an Ampeg pushed to grind), and those types of guys have been looking for this type of small option that can do that for a long time. I am not aware of any other small amp that can do this (at least do it as well as the RH450). I guess the Orange micro would be the ultimate if you wanted full out distortion.
If you run the RH450 'clean and crisp' like we do, there are many other options (including the Genz stuff) that can work as well or even better for some, depending on your tone goals, etc.
I've not had the pleasure of hearing a 9.0. I would love to as I've owned the Genz Neopak, Shuttle 6.0 and GBE 1200. I'm a big fan of Genz gear in general, albeit with a bit of EQ tweaking that is a bit more extreme for me than with the RH450. No problem there of course. That's what the knobs are for.
The RH450 seems to have much more power than the Shuttle 6.0. Folks I know who've owned the 6.0 say they notice a big power increase with the 9.0, along with more bottom. My "guess" is that the 9.0 and RH450 would likely have identical output on smaller cabinets (like a 210 or 212), but that the 9.0 would really showcase it's extra horsepower with larger cabinets, such as a 410, 610 or 810.
The Genz heads can definitely sound more crisp and articulate. The RH450 can do a bit of that. While the Genz heads can sound fairly warm, IME they do not have the type of warmth and modern-fused retro feel of the RH450. Even with a tube in the Genz pre, I wouldn't say that it provides the kind of warmth that most all-tube guys are looking for, which is exactly what the RH450's Tubetone control does at moderate settings. You can dial that warmth in or out which is a nice feature.
Reading through the Genz megathreads, there are some newcomers to Genz that seem to be describing the 9.0 as some kind of ultra-warm, tubey, chewey, gooey head. Again, I've not heard the head, but the guys I know who I trust who've owned many Genz heads say that the 9.0 is VERY much in the same tonal category as everything else Genz has made, except that they've fattened up the bottom in the preamp a bit right out of the gate. Many folks had been dialing in low-end on the other Genz heads for years, and I think the number one "complaint" (for lack of a better word) for many users was that the bottom end was a bit thinner than with other heads, even with their bigger lead-sled designs. It seems that this was taken into account with the Shuttle 9.0. Pure speculation, but folks here at TB seem to really appreciate the change.
I'm sure the 9.0 is excellent if it appeals to you!
The RH450 seems to have much more power than the Shuttle 6.0. Folks I know who've owned the 6.0 say they notice a big power increase with the 9.0, along with more bottom. My "guess" is that the 9.0 and RH450 would likely have identical output on smaller cabinets (like a 210 or 212), but that the 9.0 would really showcase it's extra horsepower with larger cabinets, such as a 410, 610 or 810.
The Genz heads can definitely sound more crisp and articulate. The RH450 can do a bit of that. While the Genz heads can sound fairly warm, IME they do not have the type of warmth and modern-fused retro feel of the RH450. Even with a tube in the Genz pre, I wouldn't say that it provides the kind of warmth that most all-tube guys are looking for, which is exactly what the RH450's Tubetone control does at moderate settings. You can dial that warmth in or out which is a nice feature.
Reading through the Genz megathreads, there are some newcomers to Genz that seem to be describing the 9.0 as some kind of ultra-warm, tubey, chewey, gooey head. Again, I've not heard the head, but the guys I know who I trust who've owned many Genz heads say that the 9.0 is VERY much in the same tonal category as everything else Genz has made, except that they've fattened up the bottom in the preamp a bit right out of the gate. Many folks had been dialing in low-end on the other Genz heads for years, and I think the number one "complaint" (for lack of a better word) for many users was that the bottom end was a bit thinner than with other heads, even with their bigger lead-sled designs. It seems that this was taken into account with the Shuttle 9.0. Pure speculation, but folks here at TB seem to really appreciate the change.
I'm sure the 9.0 is excellent if it appeals to you!
I thought that the GB was the most transparent of all the Micros I have tried or owned: Shuttle 6.0, Mark Bass F1, LM3(tested extensively not owned) and RH450. That being said a dab will do you on any of the eq controls. Maybe that is why some people think it is more "voiced" than others. I think Markbass and the RH450 are very voiced. What I would do is set for a great finger tone with a bit (and yes only capable of a bit) of tube warmth and dropping the para-mids as low as possible with a bit of boost, cutting the highs a bit. Then I would flip my pick up selector, Low and High tone shapers and wow, best slap tone I've heard out of any of my owned amps. I also have owned a WT550 and own a E300T. I found the tone shapers very useful!
If your looking for features the RH450 is miles ahead, though to many features isn't what everyone is looking for. Also, power wise the 6.0 is the weakest I've tested, in fact every amp rated under 600W I've played can spank it in volume and headroom. I hope the 9.0 is capable of much more but would't be surprised if it is closer to the RH450 in balls than any of us would think form looking at the power ratings.
I like the RH450 because of all the possibilities, I agree with all the positive review except the compressor, I am not YET impressed. Also, I cant match the Shuttle's slap tone YET.....
IMHO (I only have 2 week experience with it).
If your looking for features the RH450 is miles ahead, though to many features isn't what everyone is looking for. Also, power wise the 6.0 is the weakest I've tested, in fact every amp rated under 600W I've played can spank it in volume and headroom. I hope the 9.0 is capable of much more but would't be surprised if it is closer to the RH450 in balls than any of us would think form looking at the power ratings.
I like the RH450 because of all the possibilities, I agree with all the positive review except the compressor, I am not YET impressed. Also, I cant match the Shuttle's slap tone YET.....
IMHO (I only have 2 week experience with it).
I believe you are confusing 'brightness' (which is strongly related to the perception of 'transparency') with a 'flat' response on the scope.
Kind of a moot point... if it sounds good to you, it sounds good to you. Literally every head made has been described as 'flat and/or transparent' by those who dig the tone, and every head has some sort of built in voicing... so +1.
However, +1 that the RH450 has a STRONG voice built into the amp, with quite a bit of hi pass and low pass built in around the edges, and a few 'peaks' dialed in throughout the midrange for an inherent punch.
If your slap tone involves a lot of upper treble sizzle, the RH450 will not exactly mirror the Shuttle nor the Markbass tone, since both those lines of heads are way more extended up top (like the Staccato voicing in the TC line).
I agree.
I think it is worth it to try both but first choose the one that reviews suggest best matches your tone. The Genz Benz is worth attention IMO and the RH450 begs for it with all the features. I’m personally occupied and excited with the RH450’s features but expect to add a 9.0 in the distant future.
I think it is worth it to try both but first choose the one that reviews suggest best matches your tone. The Genz Benz is worth attention IMO and the RH450 begs for it with all the features. I’m personally occupied and excited with the RH450’s features but expect to add a 9.0 in the distant future.
I would like to add that those seeking the massive wattage at low weight....its not actually true with all these micros.
I know 900W is 900W if you have it through the right type of cabinets, but I didnt not think the 9.0 actually sounded like 900W head at 4ohms...it was loud, but then again so is my Orange AD200b Mk3....and the Orange totally spanks it with volume despite it being 200 tube watts. It all depends on what you are used to. My old Trace 400W GP12SMX was loud back then, and guess what, at 8 ohms, even before I sold it, it was STILL massively loud even in a hardcore punk band.
The RH wattage seems very true, and thats why I finally caved in once I realised how serious TC were about making a truly remarkable bass amp.
I know 900W is 900W if you have it through the right type of cabinets, but I didnt not think the 9.0 actually sounded like 900W head at 4ohms...it was loud, but then again so is my Orange AD200b Mk3....and the Orange totally spanks it with volume despite it being 200 tube watts. It all depends on what you are used to. My old Trace 400W GP12SMX was loud back then, and guess what, at 8 ohms, even before I sold it, it was STILL massively loud even in a hardcore punk band.
The RH wattage seems very true, and thats why I finally caved in once I realised how serious TC were about making a truly remarkable bass amp.
Really apples to oranges here. I've always found that its about a 5:1 ratio on tube versus non tube watts and the Trace SMX stuff was some of the most grossly underrated amps from a wattage perspective in history.
Well put.
I just got rid of a Shuttlemax 12.0 as the voicing filters were really not usable IMO (for switching between on a gig at least) and I prefer the many different "usable" tones I can get out of the 450. The 3 presents are also incredibly useful for me as I use different basses on gigs with wildly different output levels.
As far as loudness goes, the 12.0 may be a bit louder than the 450, but I always have headroom with my 450 even at large outdoor gigs. It is plenty loud IMO and I would expect the 9.0 to have about the same output.
Unless you really love the GB tone, I would highly recommend the RH450.
P.S. I still own a GBE1200 and still gig it from time to time. GB is a great company to deal with and their service is at the very top IMO.
In any case, I really prefer the RH450 tone to what I can get out of the GBE1200 or any GB amp I have owned/tried... not bad considering the GBE is $1600 and the RH450 is under $1k.
My main head is an E300T and it is extreemly loud and has crazzy headroom for 300W of tube. I can get warm cleanish tone at 8ohms far louder than I could out of the 6.0 at 4ohms. I have yet to need to plug the RH450 or E300T into more than 8ohms.
True, but a 900W amp solid state should be able to match the 200W in some way?!
I realise the tubes will make it sound massive anyway....I was just giving an indication that watts means nothing
