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Teach me how to EQ - pretty please.

djaxup

djaxup

Jul 22, 2011
1,177
1,276
North Sea coast, Germany
#1
Hi, I need help.

I don't sound bad in rehearsal room, but I don't really sound like i want to either. I have three main problems:


- as soon as I feel the bass has enough body, it puts too much pressure to the ears. Thats plainly unpleasant to rehearse with. It also tends to not go along well with the guitars and keys.

- If I dial in a nice oopmh to the stomach/legs, it starts to mud up and just plainly be too loud without giving definition to the notes played. This is still preferred by the rest of the band as opposed to the ear pressure of doom.

- I don't feel like bassdrum and bass guitar connect properly sound wise. Timing is ok, it just feels wrong somehow. It seems to have to do with the volume of the two, but also the sound.


I have good tools for EQing, but lack the skills I think. I have an Empress ParaEQ, my AER Amp Two has a parametric mid knob... sansamp... EQs galore.
I can nullify problematic frequencies with the ParaEQ quite good. If i take away the ear killer low mids, the bass virtually loses all it's strenght seemingly. Once mids and lows are cool, the bass sounds all clickety clackety. I dial that out, the bass is muffly and gets lost in the mix.

Do i want too much?


Tools of the Trade:
Basses: Spector Euro 4-LX (thats the most important), Epiphone Thunderbird IV Classic Pro, Squier CV 60's P-Bass.

Amp: 'AER Amp Two' or GK1001RB-II with Mesa Powerhouse 1x15.

Pedals: notable: Markbass Compressore, Empress ParaEQ, Sansamp Bass Driver.
 
#2
Sounds like you may be over-complicating things!

My advice would be to start off by just plugging the bass guitar straight into the amp. Set all EQ controls to "noon" - i.e., not cutting or boosting anything. Turn up to a sensible volume, and play around with the tone control until you get something you like - importantly, listen to the range of sounds you get by turning it.

Now play a song with the band.

If the sound's too sharp or "clickety clackety," you might find you can fix this with the tone control. If you want more "body," you might find that increasing the input gain does a better job than pushing the low frequencies. Try experimenting with the amp EQ, but use it sparingly. Listen carefully to how it sits in the mix - and I'm sure your bandmates will be happy to provide advice!
 
#4
Hiya!
I second the advice given: start from scratch. Adjust the low mids (for example) if you think thats what you need, play and see if it improved anything. Make corrections if necessary. Then do the same with other frequencies. this makes your adjustments more structured and helps you learning what freqs do for your sound.
Also:
- cutting is usually better than boosting
- dont be afraid of extreme settings
- watch out for over-eq-ing.

But also think of other options. Your compressor might help you fit your sound in the band, but also consider playing more near to the bridge or neck pickup and playing with the pickup balance. This can also help you be less or more "boomy" and whatnot.

Hope this helps!
 
#6
edit: Spiffmeister beat me to the punch on a lot of this!!! LOL

djaxup said:
Thanks for the advice!



I guess the problem is my lacking experience and thus lacking ability to hear specific problematic frequencies.
Click to expand...

Could you describe a bit more about the type/style of music you are playing? There's a huge difference in the sounds that are "desirable" when you contrast the bass in a reggae band, a jazz fusion trio, a metal band, a pop band, country band, top 40 dance, etc. etc.

Also, are the problems you are having mostly in the context of your rehearsal environment? Or also at live gigs?

A couple quick suggestions:

Agreed, start over and start simple. Also, if "boominess" and lack of clarity are an issue, you can experiment with adding MORE of the bridge pickup and LESS of the neck pickup, up to the point where you are using 100% bridge pickup. My experience with using the "bridge only" is that you can even roll off almost all of the treble and it will still pleasantly cut through a stage mix. It is a different sound, though, than a mix if the 2 pickups or the neck pickup - much less low end and more midrange presence (playing hard right over the bridge pickup will further enhance this).

Throw a compressor in line, but with only mild compression, which would barely be audible (level meters of some kind would help immensely as a visual feedback to see how much gain reduction is in effect), and help even out the discrepancies in playing technique or different playing styles.

Do NOT go for a "scooped" midrange or "smiley face" EQ, unless you want to sound like Mark King from Level 42.

You've got good gear. No reason why you can't get a good sound with it. I'd also suggest scouring YouTube and look for interviews with bassists who have a sound you like, and mimic-ing what they do, how they play, and how they implement the gear they use.
 
#8
djaxup said:
It certainly does, ty. Keep it coming :)
Click to expand...

Just curious, but why aren't you using the Wal bass for this gig? FWIW, I have a very similar setup to yours that I gig with frequently, consisting of the Wal bass, GK1001RBII, and a full range (coaxial) 15" loaded bass cabinet (ported). This is a killer little rig IMO, and I get great tones from the Wal with the GK amp settings pretty much neutral, with all of the tone and shaping knobs set to "noon", and the BOOST knob set around 10 o'clock. But, it's also hard to go wrong with the Wal - very difficult to make that bass sound bad. My other bass, a Schecter Stiletto Studio Elite, sounds very good with virtually the same settings.

In the end, the instrument and amp are only part of the equation. So much of your tone will be unique to you, and is a product of how you approach your instrument and your individual playing style.
 
#9
Also a HUGE part of the equation is, as jimfist pointed out, the environment. More specifically, the room. Try repositioning your amp. Not too close to a wall, and definitely not in the middle of either side of the space. And avoid standing right beside your amp, you generally won't hear as much low end, and will compensate for it by turning up the bass too much.
 
#10
The others gave you good advice, as long as you like your amp's tone. I often get back line amps that don't have good tone without radical eq work. Depending on the room and the amp that I am provided, I start with the following eq settings.
Lows under 50 hz moderate cut shelving
low mids at 200-250hz moderate boost narrow peak
Mids at 500 hz get very slight cut narrow peak
High mids at 1.2hz get slight boost narrow peak
High frequencies at get cut slightly with shelving, with the frequency varying depending on the room.

This is how I eq with the amp set as flat as I can get it. I adjust from there. The above settings work well for all of my basses with classic rock and church music that are the majority of my gigs. I should note too, that I also use a vt bass pedal with it's eq set flat (flat according to tech21's settings).
 
#11
Dude, I had the same problem and I also play a euro 4. I also had the issue that my Spector was too poppy and treble heavy without low end. When I finally thought I had a good bass heavy tone, all I heard from my band mates was that I was too loud. I had an svt 4 pro with many eqs and compressors. The best solution I found? I sold every piece of eq, compressor etc. gear and the 4 pro and bought an orange terror bass 1000 and am running into an ampeg 810. I dial my mid and bass to 2 o clock and treble slightly cut off at 11 o clock but compensate by having the four knobs on the Spector cranked to full. I absolutely love the simplicity as the Spector tone was getting lost in the rack chain. Imo a big rack looks cool, but you can't beat the simplicity of tubes. The terror has a tube preamp and 1000 watt solid state power amp but sounds just as good as an ad200 I think. So, long story short, go simple and let your Spector do the talkin.
 
#12
Also, have your guitarist turn their bass down and it should help you hear your definition when playing. And if you have the kick micd in practice it should be on a lower frequency than the bass. The bass should ride the low mids and the kick should have the low lows.
 
#13
Great info guys, i really appreciate your help.

i sold the Wal Mk1 bass. It was always a bit of a (very pleasant) compromise since I've always wanted a Mk2. I won't be Wal-less for long, the Mk2 is already in planning.
So the Spector is my main gun atm. And a very fine one at that.
The Wal had pretty much the same problem: not enough tone/articulation coming through, or too loud/boomy. Or ****** sounding because too middy.

Right now the problem is only in rehearsal room. We want to play better and get more songs (all our own material) before gigging. Recordings sound fine.


More information:

The Band plays gothic rock with some electronics. Setup is: Singer, Keys/Synth, Guitar, Baritone Guitar / Rhythm Guitar, Bass, E-Drums. Before everyone jumps at the Baritone Player: most of the time he does rhythm parts with a normal Les Paul Guitar. Pickings and Melodies are done using a Bass VI on some songs. He definitely does not enter bass region too much. Think the Cure. He is a moderate player who does not turn too loud.

I prefer my tone on most of the songs to be clean and clear. I love the Spector voicing and would love to get it audible in the more silent parts of the songs. Still the bass needs to deliver a punching, focused low end most of the time. Keys and two guitars and a vocalist who has a rather low and full sounding voice all take up most space in the mids I guess. The compositions of the songs use most instruments sparingly... it all really should work out.

Right now we have an almost dice like room... yuk. I positioned my bass amp more or less near the middle of the room and stand about 2,5m away from it, cab pointing at my body / groin. It is a 1x15 on wheels. It is pointing diagonally into the room.

I am perfectly able to dial in a nice sound that i like tone wise, but of course it changing a lot as soon as the rest of the band join in. I think the E-Drums is part of the problem. The Bassdrum and toms are thundering to say the least. Problem is, the bassdrum sound of his set has a strange kind of lingering sub bass after the hit. I can only guess that this is part of the problem.

When i hear a good solid rhythm group, i always think "wow that bassdrum and bass go really well together", meaning they sound like made for each other. Timing is a different factor. Just the sound of the two. I'd love to sound so good too...
 
#14
Thanks for the excellent detailed description of your group and the challenges you face. At first glance, I would say that it appears as though there would be an inherent "struggle" for sonic space within a band that has e-drums and keyboards/synths, as well as the bari-guitar and a vocalist with a low-ish range.

Think about what would happen on a recording: the engineer and producer would need to figure out a way for all 6 of you to be sonically intelligible, but not "step on each others toes"; in essence, you each need to carve out your own sonic space. This is a technical fine art, and one of the biggest hurdles will ALWAYS be the physical environment where you perform. Without giving your rehearsal room a full acoustical treatment to kill bass traps, standing waves, reflections, etc., it will always be difficult for you to tell whether your bass sound is at fault, or whether it is more the room.

To boil this down, what I would do is at rehearsal, figure out a way to set up for a live to 2 track (stereo) recording of the band. Scrutinize your recordings and shape everyone's tone at the source before going into the mixing console (if possible). If you get to the point where these live rehearsal recordings sound pretty good, with your bass and all the other instruments sitting nicely in the mix, then I'd worry less about the way the bass is projecting in the room, since when you perform on stage, your volume and tone/EQ will invariably change from place to place.

Also consider this: since you seem to be happy with the sound before the full band kicks in, this may be more of a "monitoring" issue than anything. Yes, your bass tone may be just fine as it is...so...figure out a way to hear yourself better without offending anyone else by turning up too loud, etc. This is why in-ear monitoring systems (in conjunction with stage amps) have become very popular. Stage sound and level can be set while the in-ear monitors accommodate the needs of the individual performers.

JMHO...
 
#15
This is excellent advice... i guess the monitoring thing will help the most. We are about to do more on this topic anyways, our singer wants to hear herself better to intonate better (the rest does not think this is a problem, but she needs to be comfortable with it, eh?). I've also heard good things about E-Drum with a close monitor pointed at the drummer with just his own sound and maybe bass.

Also, the 2 track recordings. We have done those in the past, sadly our mixing board is a bit limited here. We'd like to keep the PA system to just vocals, e-drum and keys, and run guitars and bass over their respective amps/cabinets. We can use the monitor out of the mixing board for this, but then the recordings are just one channel, as in mono. More precisely stereo with just one side on. That makes separating the guitars to different sides impossible, something that sounds very good in a recording imo.

So two things are possible now: use the monitor out to power the pa speakers and still get a good stereo recording with the 2 track out, or just run everything over pa. That usually works good except for the main guitar. It tends to be too loud if you can hear it over the normal amp and the pa speakers. Doesn't sound good if the amp is set too low either, while possible the sound then lacks that nice breakup and fullness.
 
#16
Probably the most important tool to really understanding the affect of EQ is to have an EQ in/out button, so that you can constantly compare what you are doing to the un-EQ'd signal. As you're learning, you will frequently find that you prefer where you started to where you end up - so then you start over. Through this process you can learn the subtleties necessary to get the sound you want.
 
#17
djaxup said:
This is excellent advice... i guess the monitoring thing will help the most. We are about to do more on this topic anyways, our singer wants to hear herself better to intonate better (the rest does not think this is a problem, but she needs to be comfortable with it, eh?). I've also heard good things about E-Drum with a close monitor pointed at the drummer with just his own sound and maybe bass.

Also, the 2 track recordings. We have done those in the past, sadly our mixing board is a bit limited here. We'd like to keep the PA system to just vocals, e-drum and keys, and run guitars and bass over their respective amps/cabinets. We can use the monitor out of the mixing board for this, but then the recordings are just one channel, as in mono. More precisely stereo with just one side on. That makes separating the guitars to different sides impossible, something that sounds very good in a recording imo.

So two things are possible now: use the monitor out to power the pa speakers and still get a good stereo recording with the 2 track out, or just run everything over pa. That usually works good except for the main guitar. It tends to be too loud if you can hear it over the normal amp and the pa speakers. Doesn't sound good if the amp is set too low either, while possible the sound then lacks that nice breakup and fullness.
Click to expand...

Yes, having the proper mixing board is key. The good news is that traditional "knobs and faders" mixing boards with a lot of channels and aux sends are hitting the used market like crazy due to the influx of digital mixing boards, so you can have a lot of features for pretty cheap money. But yes, a board with limited inputs, subgroups, aux sends, etc. can make it difficult to do a good live-to-2 track board mix recording....but the benefits are tremendous IMO, and would emulate exactly what happens in the real world of live performance, where the stage gets aux sends to feed monitors, while the FOH mixing console gets everything and feeds it to a stereo PA system.
 
#19
Uh, perhaps I missed a comment on this, but the OP mentioned his drummer's edrums' bass had some sort sub thing going on. Might this suck up some of his sonic space? He says he hears a conflict w/the bass drum....

Everyone's advice is spot on as far as it goes. Try getting your drummer to drop the sub thing and see what happens.

HTH!

:bassist::bassist:
 
#20
Always EQ within a band context. Personally, I would try not using a PEQ. Just use the knobs on your bass amp. Being male, we tend to over complicate things, possibly out of boredom or some sort of need for total control. My rule is K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid. YMMV
 

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