Double Bass Teaching intonation to "tone deaf" beginners

[Tom Lane]

It isn't an either or, it is just that fine tuning a solid position is a more lasting approach than getting a note in tune "any old way" out of the gate. Anyone who thinks getting their hand right is all it takes is not correct - same goes for thinking that all it takes is being able to sing what you play.
What I do think is that one order is better than the other and building a solid position is the by far the best step one. Being able to play in tune with your hand any old way is a really, really tough habit to break and will cause a lot of trouble down the road in terms of up tempo playing and other situations.

Honestly, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just keep seeing Niels-Henning Orsted Pedersen playing Donna Lee with Joe Pass in my mind's eye, and think, "hmmm, more than one way to skin that cat."

Actually, now that I think about it, while I agree that building a solid right hand is important - except maybe for NHOP, Rabath, etc - I still think learning to sing the pitches will only improve your intonation because it will "inform" your hand when its correct. So I guess I do disagree with you. Plus, you used a straw-man argument because no one had recommended NOT learning a solid LH previously. Students could do both at the same time - except according to you that's not the best way. I suspect I won't have to look far to find another expert player to contradict you.

 

[damonsmith]

If we are talking about getting a line together for a gig, then singing is your fastest way. I am coming up on 20 years of teaching. In that time I have had several students from square one, zero who had serious trouble generally hearing a pitch, zero who had a flawless left hand. Many, many students who were able to get the pitches pretty well with their hand any old way.

I've got three students right now who can play their Simandl pretty well in tune with lots of squirrelly left hand movement. If you want to be serious about playing the double bass you are not getting out of either singing your lines or getting your positions together.
As a teacher, I've seen 100% left hand issues. While everyone's ear can always be improved, most of my students had a good sense of music and pitch.
Singing is a super important step in getting a piece of music down, for pitch, phrasing and even dynamics. I don't discount it - not for a second.
Most people spend time with their strengths and not weaknesses, and with the bass that tends to mean not building a strong enough positions.

In all but the rarest of cases playing slowly and carefully through any of the accepted methods with a strong emphasis on left hand position is going to get you a solid system for playing the bass.

Once we move to working on pieces whether a classical solo or a standard then I ALWAYS have the student sing. I like to make sure a student can sing a standard like Autumn Leaves with the lyrics accurately while walking through it. Classical solos should also be sung. Advanced ear training like breaking down the harmony is incredibly important for most musical paths, but that will be dictated by your artistic direction and come a bit later than being able to get around the instrument in a basic sense.

 

[damonsmith]

Students could do both at the same time - except according to you that's not the best way.

Some students can, and it is fine. As I've pointed out most have ears far ahead of their hand, so it puts us back at "getting the pitch any old way" which creates serious bad habits. Obviously, if you REALLY can't hear but have beautiful left hand position you are screwed!

 

[Tom Lane]

If we are talking about getting a line together for a gig, then singing is your fastest way. I am coming up on 20 years of teaching. In that time I have a several students from square one, zero who had serious trouble generally hearing a pitch, zero who had a flawless left hand. Many, many students who were able to get the pitches pretty well with their hand any old way.

I've got three students right now who can play their Simandl pretty well in tune with lots of squirrelly left hand movement. If you want to be serious about playing the double bass you are not getting out of either singing your lines or getting your positions together.
As a teacher, I've seen 100% left hand issues. While everyone's ear can always be improved, most of my students had a good sense of music and pitch.
Singing is a super important step in getting a piece of music down, for pitch, phrasing and even dynamics. I don't discount it - not for a second.
Most people spend time with their strengths and not weaknesses, and with the bass that tends to mean not building a strong enough positions.

In all but the rarest of cases playing slowly and carefully through any of the accepted methods with a strong emphasis on left hand position is going to get you a solid system for playing the bass.

Once we move to working on pieces whether a classical solo or a standard then I ALWAYS have the student sing. I like to make sure a student can sing a standard like Autumn Leaves with the lyrics accurately while walking through it. Classical solos should also be sung. Advanced ear training like breaking down the harmony is incredibly important for most musical paths, but that will be dictated by your artistic direction and come a bit later than being able to get around the instrument in a basic sense.

Okay, thanks for elaborating. ^^ this all makes sense to me.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

You're certainly welcome to your own opinion and your experience is your experience. To me, having a good sense of expectation of pitch from the beginning is only going to help nailing a positional approach.

That might make a nice little experiment, have an instrument interface with a computer so that what you hear is the same pitch, no matter where you play it on the instrument and see how quickly simply using the geography of the fingerboard gets you in the neighborhood of "in tune"....

There's an interesting related concept that a friend of mine uses for his vocal practice that involves the use of autotune through ProTools.

He's not using it for pitch correction, but rather that he records himself singing, then runs it through autotune to get feedback on how off he is. Then with that knowledge, goes back and tries to sing it correctly. Pretty clever and something I haven't had a chance to try using the bass.

 

[sonix]

@Ed Fuqua

Being someone who started learning music pretty late, just singing relative to Piano accompaniment was a serious challenge. I'm not saying its necessarily what you would call ear training, but its an essential skill nonetheless. The thing is, not everyone who falls in love with the Bass is necessarily going to be a good bass player or will have a good teacher. Especially "tone deaf" students, they generally lack in something that typically successful approaches to teaching the instrument (given a teacher's previous experience and the students mechanical skill level) might not work. So if you start your first lesson with putting them on the spot and asking them to sing, this might want them to curl inside, I doubt you'll be successful (initially) in convincing them of the importance of singing for ear training.

I guess what I'm saying is, is the focus of teaching a new student a good pedagogical method, or actually to reach in the student and lead them on forward? Its a nuanced difference, but can make or break a student.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Here's the link
Ear training voicings | TalkBass.com
It's the second post in the thread. But it's like everything else, you don't start by getting thrown into the deep end. You start small and build a foundation and move forward from there, based on your actual performance and comprehension. Not some arbitrary "time in grade" calculation.

 

[damonsmith]

Agreed, singing is certainly not first lesson material for a beginner. I've had a bit more advanced students bring in a solo on the first lesson that was a bit rough and singing was the right next move to pull it together. A big part of teaching is getting the order right.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

In response to the topic in general and no one in particular:

I am a huge proponent of singing. My best teachers all made me sing what I was playing and writing to check how deeply I was hearing it. I hated it at first, because it forced me to face my deficiencies head on. I believe in natural aptitude, but since it's something we are born with, it's basically just a starting point and nothing more. Once it is noted and the study begins, every single student's goal should simply be to get better at whatever it is that they are studying. Period. (Otherwise nothing makes any sense at all...if you aren't Mozart or Chris Potter or Chris Thile you should just give up? That's just not a helpful perspective IMO)

If you accept this viewpoint, then some progress can be made. I have never met a completely tone deaf person, and I've been teaching music for 30 years and music theory for 20. I have met some people with very little natural aptitude for matching pitch quickly, but never one who didn't improve with work. It's like a formula: aptitude is the magnifier in any field, but work/focused practice over time = progress from where you were when you started. This includes both singing and bass technique. The real question I often ask new students is, "Are you willing to embrace those things you don't do well yet and work on making them better? If so, I can help you. If you want to hide from those same things, we won't get very far." In 100 out of 100 cases in my personal experience, students who sing willingly when troubleshooting their intonation issues do exponentially better than those who try to solve those same issues through technique and prayer. EEMMV.

 

[damonsmith]

Consistent intonation on double bass isn't going to happen until your hand is comfortable making hairline adjustments and accurate shifts AND you can hear and sing your lines clearly.

What I maintain is that the left hand is a harder and longer road and that being able to play basic things in tune WITHOUT the left hand "correct" makes the whole process longer - therefore it should addressed first and then make an assessment for the best next move.

 

[damonsmith]

I think things got a bit at odds here with building a lasting system vs. solving an issue in the moment. We always need to ask the question, "are we not able play it or are we not a able to hear it or both?". I have trouble with things all the time. I get the line under my fingers and sing it a few times, it works out fine.

It is when we are talking about building a technical approach from the ground up that a student hearing better than they can play actually drags out the process of getting the whole thing together. I see it most often in adults transitioning from bass guitar and orchestra kids who have only had the classes and no private lessons.

The power of hearing is not to be under estimated. The first thing I learned on the double bass was Goodbye, Porkpie Hat arco in Eb (second was page one of Simandl 30 Etudes) . It took me years before I could read down an equally complex line in Eb. But, I could hear it and loved it so I made it happen. I bet there are Garcia-Fons or Arild Andersen lines I could sing & know super well aurally but just wouldn't be able to play now.

If there is "one" answer it is to attack your weaknesses, but really it is complex order of events and I will ALWAYS maintain that fine tuning is not step one with any beginner.

 

[isolated]

Here's the link
Ear training voicings | TalkBass.com
It's the second post in the thread. But it's like everything else, you don't start by getting thrown into the deep end. You start small and build a foundation and move forward from there, based on your actual performance and comprehension. Not some arbitrary "time in grade" calculation.

Thanks for this, Ed. Going back over and dealing with some sorely-neglected elements these days, and this way is illuminating.

I'm compelled to ask if you find solfege to be necessary here, or if just singing the pitch with an open vowel sound is sufficient? Do tell.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

@isolated - just tone, no syllables. If I hadda do solfege, I'd prolly opt for movable not fixed...

 

[isolated]

@isolated - just tone, no syllables. If I hadda do solfege, I'd prolly opt for movable not fixed...

Dig.