Double Bass Teaching vibrato

[Mike Goodbar]

I got his idea from my kid's Suzuki violin teacher:

I take a pack of Tic Tacs (yes, the refreshing mint candy) and attach it to the back of the student's left wrist with a rubber band (not too tight). If the vibrato is moving correctly, the Tic Tacs should emit a satisfying, rhythmic shake.

A little juvenile, but it seems to work, at least with the younger students.

Warning: this method will not work with a roll of Mentos

 

[kurt muroki]

hey guys, ideally there are many different ways of doing vibrato to suit the needs of the performer and the music. The goal of the vibrato is to add more expression and color.

One general rule of thumb for my own playing is that I never stop trying and experimenting. Once a person says that they refuse to try something, then it culls the learning process. Every time I think I am sure about something in music, I always tend to realize later on that I was wrong. Always try everything at least once with an open mind.

 

[thewhale]

I just found this thread and thought I might throw in the fact that Ed Barker (principal bass of the Boston Symphony) vibrates in a way that the highest point in his vibrato is the written pitch. The human ear usually gravitates towards the highest pitch it can hear.

 

[CT DB]

lol

 

[Alex Jenkins]

I just found this thread and thought I might throw in the fact that Ed Barker (principal bass of the Boston Symphony) vibrates in a way that the highest point in his vibrato is the written pitch. The human ear usually gravitates towards the highest pitch it can hear.

Right. I'm pretty sure that's how everyone generally vibrates. You're supposed to start on the pitch and vibrate from the original pitch down.

 

[Freddels]

I got his idea from my kid's Suzuki violin teacher:

I take a pack of Tic Tacs (yes, the refreshing mint candy) and attach it to the back of the student's left wrist with a rubber band (not too tight). If the vibrato is moving correctly, the Tic Tacs should emit a satisfying, rhythmic shake.

A little juvenile, but it seems to work, at least with the younger students.

Warning: this method will not work with a roll of Mentos

Good & Plenty might work better.

 

[David Potts]

Start teaching vibrato when the left hand shape and use are strong and not distorted by shifting.

I generally start talking about vibrato after first establishing 1st, !/2, 2nd and 3rd positions (in that order) then some shifting technique using the shifts back and forward between !st and 3rd positions. This is about the same time as I introduce easy pieces that could use some vibrato (to break the monotony of Simandl)

Like others above I feel that the stopping of a shift by "nipping" between fingers and thumb can be exploited to roll on into the start of vibrato very naturally, just a few "wobbles" at first. Later the vibrato can be developed towards a perpetual motion, listening for a shape that makes the note sing and definitely not distract the listener. The aim finally is to be able to start and stop or change shape of vibrato at will, without tensing up the left hand or affecting bowing.

As for pitch you must be at or near the note long enough for it to sound like a note but sing, definitely not sounding like bowing the old bent woodsaw!!!

DP

 

[fergus currie]

Also, don't roll your fingertip above the pitch, vibrato comes from below the pitch to the pitch. When you're doing exercises, make surre you start each click with your hand on pitch(accept when you do triplets and quarter notes if one click equals a quarter note), not below the pitch.

This is not right. Vibrato comes from going above and below the pitch in about even amounts. That is why vibrato on harmonics sounds weird. Harmonics are very difficult to flatten nicely and the vibrato on these is almost entirely above the pitch. If vibrato was only below the pitch why should we ever roll the hand forward? Please rethink this statement.
Correct vibrato starts with the note in tune with the finger tip upright enough to go forward and backards in the 'wrist roll', going first sharp then flat of the note during the execution of vibrato.

Having read the thread now I can see that there is indeed controversy over this matter. Lawrence Wolfe (BSO) certainly goes over the pitch. Gary Karr might go a semitone over pitch (eek!) Joel Q's new Bottesini recordings on Naxos seem to have very well centred vibrato especially in the soprano accompaniments on Vol. 2. J.Q. is pretty much the gold standard for me. Bozo Paradjiz (professor in Freiburg) has a very nice centred vibrato. One can find examples of professionals using al kinds of different vibratos but you have to start with the note in tune. I wish I could see the vibrato that only uses the back swing part of the 'wrist roll' on video. I have just tried it and it is almost imposible for me to do! I cannot play the note in tune in a normal hand position and then vibrate only with the back swing! When these guys stop is the note really in tune?

Nice trick with the TikTaks!

 

[thewhale]

So how about we throw this out there in the mix. What is in tune? Are we watching a tuner to let it decide when a pitch is perfectly in tune? Are we just using out ears to decide when a pitch sounds in tune? What temperament will we be using, equal or well? Pitch and intonation are such personal preferences that this debate will never end. There is no such thing as perfectly in tune.

 

[fergus currie]

There are two kinds of tuning. (No, not 'the wrong way and my way'!) we either tune with a tuner or tune with other parts of the bass (neigboring open strings, harmonics etc.). Either way, we know when the note is in tune. having achieved this, we then do vibrato. End of story. If you think the note is flat/sharp to begin with then it doesn't matter what kind of virato you do, that too will be out of tune. Simple.

 

[thewhale]

I guess you're not familiar with making note "brighter" by raising the pitch slightly or "darker" by lowering the pitch. In tune is a subjective statement. Different ears will hear and judge intonation differently. Vibrato can be used to mask poor intonation or to add color to a piece. This is why I've played in many bass sections that encourage little vibrato to give the orchestra a clear pitch to tune. Our ears don't hear pitch the same with vibrato.

 

[fergus currie]

I guess you're not familiar with making note "brighter" by raising the pitch slightly or "darker" by lowering the pitch. In tune is a subjective statement. Different ears will hear and judge intonation differently. Vibrato can be used to mask poor intonation or to add color to a piece. This is why I've played in many bass sections that encourage little vibrato to give the orchestra a clear pitch to tune. Our ears don't hear pitch the same with vibrato.

Well, I'm familiar with raising a note to make it sharper etc.

I don't think you''re really getting this. I'll try again. If you play 'in tune' (with whatever criteria you chose) should we then vibrato only on the 'back swing' (the part of the wrist motion that rolls up towards the nut), or play a fullswing vibrato like everybody learns in any book on bass playing that covers the subject. Ibragimov, Orhon, Quarrington, Paradzik, etc. etc. (and me too) are all doing something wrong? I can't believe that.

 

[fergus currie]

This is from Ivan Galamian's page on the 'Violinsite':

It is often thought that vibrato can partially disguise an out of tune note, the intuitive idea being that the ear should not be able track pitch as accurately when it is moving up and down. However, recent experimental work finds no such effect: the human ear detects the mean frequency of a vibrato note just as accurately as it detects a non-undulating pitch.

(my bold type)

The word to note hear is 'mean'. Not the highest pitch but the centre of the note.

QED (or maybe not, you decide...)

 

[CT DB]

That phenomenon was covered earlier in the thread, to no avail. Science is no match for, "[insert name of teacher or famous bass player] said so!"

 

[thewhale]

Nobody ever said to use only half of your range of motion for vibrato, I don't know where that idea came from. The idea that you are skewing is that vibrato should allow the highest pitch be the true pitch since human ears often gravitate to the highest pitch available. This does not mean to use only a back swing of the hand, but the full swing that peaks at the desired pitch. I'm also not saying that this is how I play, but it is what I shoot for sometimes.

I just wanted to throw in another dimension on the problem that the desired pitch for one person may not be the same for another, and therefore vibrato allows for many instances of a "correct" pitch to be played at once.

My point is that there are no definites in music and we should be able to adjust accordingly. Vibrato must be varied just as pitch needs the ability to be varied. I feel like some people approach an instrument as though they are trying to program a machine. I'm not trying to argue or prove you wrong, I'm just throwing in some different elements to the equation.

 

[fergus currie]

I understand what you're saying. I'll have one more go at trying to show you where you're going off the line. With a full-swing vibrato in which the highest pitch is 'in tune', when you stop vibrating and settle in a normal hand position the note will be flat since the upper swing is the correct pitch. so the question arises: should we teach kids to play slightly flat from the start so that their vibrato will be in tune (according to your theory) when they evetually get there? Think about that.

 

[David Potts]

My last 2c worth!

How good are you guys at singing? Sing a note without vibrato then go on into vibrato while still singing. Does your voice first go higher or lower than the original pitch? I think mine drops slightly then rises to the pitch again, spending enough time at or close to pitch as it rises and falls to make a definite relatively stable note. It does not go equally above and below but sounds like I am saying "ha ha ha....." like a rounded saw tooth shape, the "huh" going up slightly faster than the "aaaaa" going down.

DP

 

[thewhale]

I understand what you're saying. I'll have one more go at trying to show you where you're going off the line. With a full-swing vibrato in which the highest pitch is 'in tune', when you stop vibrating and settle in a normal hand position the note will be flat since the upper swing is the correct pitch.

That is correct, but in this instance there would hardly ever be a need to stop the vibrato at the end of the note.

As far as for the children, we teach them to play the right notes and build a good hand position without vibrato, then teach them to be flexible in their playing so that they may be able to use all available colors on the instrument.

I was observing a viola lesson the other day (it was good though, trust me) and the teacher suggested playing a "Fantasia on a single note." In this he meant to explore all possibilities in dynamic, tone, color, vibrato, bow speed, and bow weight in one note. The possibilities are fascinating and almost endless.

 

[fergus currie]

I got quite paranoid about this discussion and started looking really cosely at lots of videos of bass players.
1. Jeff Bradeditch. He plays vibrato both ways. I think his intonation is damn good and his vibrato in the Bach videos on youtube are both over and under. When he moves to the break (over the shoulder but not quite in thumb pos.) I think he plays unconciously under the pitch only vib. but when he gets up into TP proper he goes back into full-swing over and under.
2. Bobo Paradzik. He seems to play full swing vibrato centred on the note. There is a great Clip on youtube of him playing the Desenclos 'Aria' where you can see clearly the vibrato starting. He is very consistent and a really detailed player.
3. Boguslaw Furtok. Here's a guy who plays vobrato a lot of the time below the note especially in the tenor register (from open g to about an octave above) His sound and intonation are very good. Listen to his Sonnambula on youtube where you can see that he used almost exclusively back-swing in this register as opposed to Paradzik.
4. Gunars Upatnieks. Winner of the 2008 Sperger Competition goes for full-swing starting with a good upward throw. Watch him tackle Peteris Vask's 'Bass Trip' to see what I mean. He's a student of Michael Wolfe so if he didn't catch it then it cant be that bad.
5. Dominic Seldis. New principal with the Royal Amsterdam Concertgebouw goes in for a mixture. I think his theory is for a nice simple singing sound use mostly back-swing but for climaxes and accents go full swing. There is a video of him playing the Elegy in D on Youtube where you can see clearly this idea. Towards the end of the second phrase he stops on that D just before the chromatic scale and it definitely goes over and under, but the vibrato on the next long G goes half swing only. I will have the chance to talk to Dominic next week (he's an old friend and the Concertgebouw are coming to Athens next week) and I'll ask him his views on this over some beers.

OK, I started out with a twinge in my logic bone when I read the original post but now I'm starting to look into this idea a bit more. I had a look at videos of my own playing only one of which is on Youtube and although it's not in the same league as the others I mentioned I too seem to use a mixture! Mostly I have a full-swing but infact much to my surprise I have a back-swing only vibrato right where Jeff Bradeditch has his.

It only goes to show how much we can learn from a bit of self examination.

Thank you Mr. Whale for persisting on this or I would not have done this bit of work.... Now, where's my bow?....

 

[chicagodoubler]

"There's more than one way to play this thing."
- Bill Adams


Play the bass the way you want to play it. French/ German, flatback/roundback, 124/134, on the string/off, 4 string/5, etc... No other instrument has as many "legitimate" pedagogical variations.

Make it sound beautiful to your audience and you can play with your feet for all I care.