Double Bass The 4 note leading into the IV chord

[turf3]

Using this logic you have the same problem going from IV to I.

G-D, G-D, C-G, C-G, G-D, G-D, D-A, D-A.

Yes, you do.

In that example, the bass notes faintly imply that the G chord is half a bar earlier than it is. Just as when going from the I chord to the V chord, if you play G-D, D-A, there's an implication that you've gone to the D chord half a bar early.

Is this a hard and fast rule? Of course not. But there are a lot of alternative things to play when going from I to V (or from IV back to I) that don't do this. One that I use a fair amount of the time is the whole step above, so for I chord to V chord it'd be G-E, D-A. Could go from IV to I as C-A, G-D. And so on.

What I try to avoid is doing the stereotyped quarter note walkup for every chord change; it avoids the two repeated notes and the implied early chord change, but when the bass player does it constantly it's like screaming "CHORD CHANGE NOWWWW!!!!" throughout the whole song. And then if the guitar player is doing the same pattern, it really sounds hokey.

There are dozens of ways to skin this particular cat. And it's not all that unusual to go ahead and play the proscribed G-D, D-A, too. I'll often find myself doing that when I'm not paying the closest attention, or when the tune is new to me. "Oh, it's a V now!" I mean, it's not actually WRONG like playing G-D, Gb-Bb would be.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I will say that some of the best training I ever received navigating these root-five potholes is playing years and years of oldtime fiddle tunes. This goes for Cajun as well. Learning where to land in these crooked tunes will take you to school and back. Coming from a jazz background was more of a hindrance than a help. I walked into my first Galax knowing Giant Steps forwards and backwards but couldn’t for the life of me figured out Ryestraw or Forked Deer. Ways of the World threw me all over the place. I guess a reader of this thread might surmise correctly that Old Time/Bluegrass is not something you just step into and play for fun. It’s really not as easy as it looks. I’m not a big fan of all the analyzing going on here, the discussion of rules etc. I never learned that way so it seems very odd to me to approach the music as you might jazz. I’ve always been a go for broke type student. Throw myself in the deep end and find my own way. In 1998 I moved to Surry County NC and started playing with everyone within a 80 mile radius. I had gone to festivals straight through the summers from about 1993 but wanted to actually live the life. Anyone who knows me from TB knows I’m extreme when it comes to my commitment to learn. I just don’t know any other way. I submerge myself in a genre, surround myself with the best and get my butt kicked until I’m a first call guy. Hearing real mountain folk play this music will shock you. They sometimes play things all “wrong” totally against all conventions and somehow make it sound so right. I remember an older woman who used to often play a whole tune on what I thought were the reversed beats, flipping the tune entirely, but somehow it worked?! I knew at that time that I had a lot to learn and I wasn’t going to get it off records. If anyone here is serious about learning oldtime and bluegrass I highly recommend getting a little camping gear and driving to any of the major festivals IN THE SOUTH. That is where you will learn to play this music.

 

[turf3]

Well, I can't speak for everyone posting here about bluegrass bass playing, but for myself the analysis is after the fact and the playing is done by ear.

The hard thing for crooked tunes for me is figuring out exactly WHERE that short measure is. It can take me three or four trips through the form to get where I'm hitting one where the one is, rather than being out of phase for a couple bars and then getting it back together.

And since the old time jam near me relocated to a totally inconvenient location some years back, I rarely play crooked tunes and of those few that are part of the bluegrass canon, I rarely play THEM repeatedly enough to get the crooked places clear in my head; so I'm pretty much always scuffling.

It's easy to play bluegrass and old time poorly, like I did when I started. If you want to play it well, you have to be present and really learn how to do it. It's not just roots and fifths on one and three. Even if that is what you're playing, note choice, note length, dynamics, etc., are all matters that need a lot of attention. I see a lot of folks coming from electric guitar/rock land who think "the bass just plays two notes per measure, how hard can it be?" and then they hear how a real bluegrass bass player does it, and the contrast with their output.

 

[Deltatim]

Does it sound rite? Does it fit the situation?
Go for it. Dont worry what "they" say.

 

[Steve Killingsworth]

I think I've wandered into the jazz or music theory forum by mistake. I'll just discretely slip back out the door and move along.

 

[bobsax]

Up and Away,

I recently saw a video by Nate Sabat of Mile Twelve where he said that if playing only roots and fives (no walkups, etc.), play the root twice when moving to a chord a fifth away.



In other words:

G-D | D-A is bad
G-G | D-A is fine

Guess I've been playing it "bad" for decades, whether it's bluegrass or not. Haven't been fired yet

There are times I'll play a 1/16 grace note rather than play the same note twice, like:

G-D-A | D-A or G-D-G | D-A

I use that idea in all sorts of lines, not just root-five. Haven't been fired for that either

P.S. I just was talking with Nate after a show Friday night, forgot to ask him about this

Thanks for posting . I just saw Mile12 at the Grass Vally Festival and picked up Nate's book.
You really hear it when he plays and sings at the end of the video. I realized that I do it on certain songs instinctively , I'm sure lots of us do
Tempo and Key are factors also. C (Astring) to G (Estring) is hard on fast tunes and even on slower tunes it can be muddy . I noticed Rhonda Vincents bass player playing C to the G above on a balled . As we get really high and really low we stick out and can distract from the melody.

 

[brianrost]

C (Astring) to G (Estring) is hard on fast tunes and even on slower tunes it can be muddy . I noticed Rhonda Vincents bass player playing C to the G above on a balled .

As someone who came to DB from BG, I found that I use the notes on the E string a lot more than what I hear on most bluegrass records as well as many old blues records. Certainly playing the open G instead of the G an octave below on the E string cuts through a little better. Playing the fifth that's below the root instead of the fifth above the root does give a different feel to the line, though.

Try this:

First play: G (on E string) - D (open) - C (on A) - G (on E) - D (open) - A (open)

Then play: G (open) - D (open) - C (on G) - G (open) - D (open) - A (on G)

Try all the other permutations of root to fifth below and root to fifth above, just to hear how each feels. Then try closed fingerings, like G (on E) - D (on A), C (on A) - G (on D), D (on A) - A (on D), G (on D) - D (on A), etc.

Roger Bush of Country Gazette once mentioned in an interview he down tuned his E string to slacken it for slapping, playing the actual notes all on the A, D and G strings. So staying off the E string isn't totally crazy.