I'd already been playing pizz for 45 minutes or so, so I was warmed up. And the pizz was immediately looser after this and it seems unlikely that the strings would change in any way...but...
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass The Concept of "Opening Up"
- Thread starter Matt R.
- Start date
I'd already been playing pizz for 45 minutes or so, so I was warmed up. And the pizz was immediately looser after this and it seems unlikely that the strings would change in any way...but...
gerry grable said:
Sure, but the article addresses the potential that the effect is, in fact, causal. That, of course, is often a matter of convergent evidence. Taking your example, I think we do know the causal relation between sunrise and the rooster's crowing.
Eric Hochberg said:
I think you are likely correct about you being warmed up but arco sure could change the strings. Still, I suspect you're right about that too and I'd bet a cookie that it's the bass that changes.
Okay, so we've got three separate topics going now:
All good questions. But if we're going to try to answer them all at once, I think we can consider this thread officially derailed.
1.) Does playing over a number of years fundamentally change an instrument's sound?
2.) Are older instruments inherently better than new ones?
3.) Does a short period of play (i.e., a few minutes) temporarily change, or "warm up", an instrument?
2.) Are older instruments inherently better than new ones?
3.) Does a short period of play (i.e., a few minutes) temporarily change, or "warm up", an instrument?
All good questions. But if we're going to try to answer them all at once, I think we can consider this thread officially derailed.
For what it's worth, over the past thirty-some years I have owned new basses, old basses, rebuilt basses, ply and solid.
I was the first person to play at least two basses and one luthier-built guitar. My experience was that there was substantial change in the sound over the first couple of hours, noticeable change over the first couple of weeks and modest change over the first couple of months. After a few months I had what I had for the next 10-20 years until repair starts to factor in.
I have owned at least three basses that went through substantial repair or restoration, i.e. opened, top worked-on, and closed. Same process sonically but less.
As far as I'm concerned, having a well set-up instrument with a well-planed fingerboard is more important to whether a bass sounds good than which decade of the "opening-up-a-new-bass" phenomenon its in.
+ + +
As you can imagine, I don't think older instruments are necessarily better than newer ones. I've played winners and dogs in each category. Setup is critical.
+ + +
On the other hand, I experience the "wake up your bass with the bow" phenomenon every time I bow.
Next . . .
IMO:
1) Maybe, evidence is scant.
2) No
3) Certainly seems to!
Agree 100%
Yup!
My new laminated Christopher bass is improving quite constantly over the last weeks/months. When I have it with my teacher and he plays on it, the bass makes quite a big leap forward sound-wise - unfortunately it falls back substantially when it is given back to my hands....
Well, maybe there are subtle changes in sound over the time, but there are surely much less perceiveable than what you can reach with technical improvements.
It's all in the fingers....
Well, maybe there are subtle changes in sound over the time, but there are surely much less perceiveable than what you can reach with technical improvements.
It's all in the fingers....
" When ...my teacher ...plays on it, the bass makes quite a big leap forward sound-wise - unfortunately it falls back substantially when it is given back to my hands."
If this didn't happen I'd look for a new teacher
If this didn't happen I'd look for a new teacher
I recently bought another bass, 12 yr old fully carved that had been sitting idle for six years. the volume of the bass was the same as my Hybrid . but after 2 weeks of bowing at least 1 hr a day, it has doubled its volume and the tone is much richer, both bowing and piz
It just doesn't add up:
An older bass, or a more played one, somehow resonates to the point where the tone is deemed superior.
What basis is there to assume it will stop there? With continued play why shouldn't the resonating extend to a point where the tone is no longer superior? Or until the instrument falls apart?
I think a "settling in" can happen after a bass is constructed or after a period of non-use and then re-use.
But there's no foundation to believe that the wood fibers will "open up" to some optimal point and then stay there. Don't forget, humidity will influence the moisture content of the wood on a continual basis.
An older bass, or a more played one, somehow resonates to the point where the tone is deemed superior.
What basis is there to assume it will stop there? With continued play why shouldn't the resonating extend to a point where the tone is no longer superior? Or until the instrument falls apart?
I think a "settling in" can happen after a bass is constructed or after a period of non-use and then re-use.
But there's no foundation to believe that the wood fibers will "open up" to some optimal point and then stay there. Don't forget, humidity will influence the moisture content of the wood on a continual basis.
Humidity and temperature. I notice that my bass sounds very "tight" when it's literally cold. However, I think over time things change: your technique, what you hear, your hand's musculature, strings adjust, bass settles, etc. etc. There are just way too many variables. I think over the years that I've owned my bass, my technique has also changes to maxmimize on the sound I want to get out of the bass. Who knows, my prior bass might sound amazing in my hands now.
The problem is also that there is zero consistency between basses in terms of material and technique as a combination. Each bass is created from different trees, tree types, wood grain, grain density, glues, amount of glue, thicknesses, etc. etc.. It would be virtually impossible to come up with a metric unless you were able to create some sort of wood synthetic that has a high amount of consistency in production. Only then would a study be really possible.
I feel like the tone I get from my bass is just as much from my hands as it is from my head. IMO, we truly never know what the "perfect" tone for each of us is. It's like food, something that is disgusting to us can be a delicacy for someone else. All that is left are these generalizations, like "the bass sounds good cuz it opened up".
One more thing: The Pilc stuff is a bit advanced for us. I've notice if we simply let the time-feel slow slightly while everybody backs off on their playing - it brings this heavy emotional feel to the music. I don't know how to describe it some of our best moments are at the end of a tune where we're not playing much. I don't know what else to make of it. Saying that we're playing in rubato seems to gloss over 95% of the goods.
The problem is also that there is zero consistency between basses in terms of material and technique as a combination. Each bass is created from different trees, tree types, wood grain, grain density, glues, amount of glue, thicknesses, etc. etc.. It would be virtually impossible to come up with a metric unless you were able to create some sort of wood synthetic that has a high amount of consistency in production. Only then would a study be really possible.
I feel like the tone I get from my bass is just as much from my hands as it is from my head. IMO, we truly never know what the "perfect" tone for each of us is. It's like food, something that is disgusting to us can be a delicacy for someone else. All that is left are these generalizations, like "the bass sounds good cuz it opened up".
One more thing: The Pilc stuff is a bit advanced for us. I've notice if we simply let the time-feel slow slightly while everybody backs off on their playing - it brings this heavy emotional feel to the music. I don't know how to describe it some of our best moments are at the end of a tune where we're not playing much. I don't know what else to make of it. Saying that we're playing in rubato seems to gloss over 95% of the goods.
- Oct 12, 2004
- 1,327
- 587
- 72
- Disclosures
- Retailer: Shen, Sun, older European
It's been my direct experience over several decades of breaking in new instruments over the course of several years playing time that the fundamental sound of an instrument is dramatically altered with consistent play that gets the top moving in a significant way. Light playing is less effective than digging in. Use of a bow is far more effective per minute of play than playing pizz.
An older and regularly played in version of the same kind of new instrument almost always sounds better. Some companies and luthiers have been making the same kind of instrument for decades, so this direct comparison of new versus old is easier to do than one might think.
An older and regularly played in version of the same kind of new instrument almost always sounds better. Some companies and luthiers have been making the same kind of instrument for decades, so this direct comparison of new versus old is easier to do than one might think.
I certainly feel that my Shen SB180 (hybrid) improved with age (my bow, strings and set-up were the same for the first year of it's life). I just can't honestly say when it stabilized.
I can't speak to the "waking up" issue because:
1. I have played the bass almost every day of the year for about seven years.
2. I play mostly arco, do so in every practice session, and always start with a long period of long and sometimes loud bow strokes.
I can attest to the fact that by the end of the dry winter season in February or March my bass sounds noticably better than it does at the end of the humid summer season in August or September. By better I mean more resonsive and resonnant, easier to play (with the bow).
Along the same lines though I have a humidity guage right near the bass, since I use an electronic tuner at the start of each days practice, I can tell immediately when the humidity has changed. The bass goes sharp as the humidity rises, and goes flat as it gets dryer. If I don't retune in a period of increased humidity, I will feel the added tension in the strings.
I can't speak to the "waking up" issue because:
1. I have played the bass almost every day of the year for about seven years.
2. I play mostly arco, do so in every practice session, and always start with a long period of long and sometimes loud bow strokes.
I can attest to the fact that by the end of the dry winter season in February or March my bass sounds noticably better than it does at the end of the humid summer season in August or September. By better I mean more resonsive and resonnant, easier to play (with the bow).
Along the same lines though I have a humidity guage right near the bass, since I use an electronic tuner at the start of each days practice, I can tell immediately when the humidity has changed. The bass goes sharp as the humidity rises, and goes flat as it gets dryer. If I don't retune in a period of increased humidity, I will feel the added tension in the strings.
My bass was 16 years old when I bought and it had been played quite frequently, so I'm fairly certain the the "opening up" process has largely taken place already. However,my Breedlove mandolin that I bought new in 2006 has changed quite remarkably in tone in the six years I have owned. When I bought it I was able to recognize its' potential, but I never dreamed it would sound as good as it does in such a short amount of time. I think a lot has to do with the quality of the build to begin with. I have no doubt the same is true with basses. As far as laminates are concerned, they may not open up as much as carved, but I think they still do. They are still wood after all, and wood changes and matures over time.
Zombie thread, I know, but I'm replying here partly because it's a really good thread (I just reread the whole thing) and partly because some of the posters involved bring back great memories (and RIP Don... we miss you!).
One thing that I've always wondered about is the human factor. I would love to believe that the bass itself opens up, and have felt that with a number of basses over the years. But what about the possibility that we as players simply get used to the instrument and learn how to pull the sound we're looking for out of it? This could be called the "I've Grown Accustomed To My Bass" theory... like getting intuitively calibrated to drawing out the sounds we are looking for, then attributing it to changes in the instrument. I looked for a discussion of this nature, but haven't found one yet.
One thing that I've always wondered about is the human factor. I would love to believe that the bass itself opens up, and have felt that with a number of basses over the years. But what about the possibility that we as players simply get used to the instrument and learn how to pull the sound we're looking for out of it? This could be called the "I've Grown Accustomed To My Bass" theory... like getting intuitively calibrated to drawing out the sounds we are looking for, then attributing it to changes in the instrument. I looked for a discussion of this nature, but haven't found one yet.
I think it's a little bit of both. I've had my bass for almost 5 years and it certainly has opened up in that time, but I've also (objectively, I'm not trying to toot my own horn) grown a lot as a player, bought two new bows, moved across the country, and had it set up within that time.
The characteristics, quirks, and annoyances that led me to fall in love with the instrument are still there, but I think overall it has matured and opened up. I think part of it is that if you put the sound you want into the instrument it'll learn how to react to that sound, but that's more anecdotal than anything and if could be bologna.
