The death of jamming

[FingerDub]

This is all because bass players don't know the circle of fifths. That's it.

 

[stevieg]

Yah, I can't imagine attempting such now. When I was way less old (in '78) I moved to Chicago. I went to a couple "blue Monday" sign-up deals to start checking out the scene there. I don't recall it being referred to as a "jam" - it was a house (blues) band and you signed up to sit in with them for one song. They stayed on stage the whole time, and you'd "sit-in" as a bass-player, or a drummer, or a guitarist or singer - with the house band. I dig the concept of a public open-jam being a real jam but to me, I jam with jam-mates; friends and their friends. Over many, many, many jam-nights over the years - I recall only one being 'difficult' (not fun). The drummer was the friend of the guitarist from out-of-town. He was a bass-player.., and drummer. Never heard his bass playing, but he was a poor drummer. (so I suspect a poor bass-player as well) Nice enough guy - I just have never had such a hard time connecting to a drummers playing. But point being, if you get some real friend-bonding in the room - that's when jams become exactly what they are meant to be; sharing your creative spirits with those you know, trust, respect and love. No "one-upmansship", no "competition", no BS.

Oh, funny follow-up story; the house band (a collection of local blues musicians needing work $) at the blue Monday's I checked out was headed by the guy (through a completely different trajectory) that I ended up playing bass for in his band! At the time it woke me up to how under-appreciated those blues artists were then.

Hey, Jio,
One last thing on Super Session, and it's something I forgot to point out earlier. "Man's Temptation" opens with the horn section. What this suggests to me is that Kooper had the entire arrangement in mind before he added horns. For every other selection on the album I find it easy to imagine it without horns. Not so "Man's Temptation". No horns, no opening to the tune.

Sorry if I am belaboring this. I've been carrying this notion around ever since I got the album on vinyl. Until now I had no avenue or reason to express my opinion, except when I commented on Kooper's Web site.

Sorry if this is boring you.
Best,

Stevieg

 

[Korladis]

I have another (humorous) thread going about jam bands. On a more serious note, I've been running jams for years, and probably always will. I'm saddened that so many people have lost the spirit of true jamming- Improvisation, and spontaneity.
Every week I end up with a bunch of GREAT players who just want to play songs. Maybe add a second (third...fourth) guitar solo, but the jamming aspect is all but gone.
I try to push my guests boundries, and a FEW of them get it. Go to double time feel, or a modulation, or switch up a groove- reggae Zeppelin, or metal Peaches and Herb.
I try to keep it interesting, and push peoples boundries.
I often just hit a brick wall. If it ain't on the record, they don't want to try it.
Too many automatons, not enough free spirits.
Another Pride and Joy.......in the same key as the record.....
Rant over.

I'll jam at an open mic/jam type environment.

I won't in any other circumstance, as in rehearsal or similar, it's a waste of my time.

 

[JIO]

I'll jam at an open mic/jam type environment.

I won't in any other circumstance, as in rehearsal or similar, it's a waste of my time.

In the two band projects I play in, jamming is not a consideration (and frankly it never occurs) as we have specific material to work on, so fortunately I don't have to think of jamming as being a waste of time. We may try different versions of a passage - "jamming" on what works best until discovered - but we play structured songs even if there are opportunities to vamp a bit. I have instigated dedicated jam-sessions with a few of the same musicians which I find very insightful.

 

[JIO]

Hey, Jio,
One last thing on Super Session, and it's something I forgot to point out earlier. "Man's Temptation" opens with the horn section. What this suggests to me is that Kooper had the entire arrangement in mind before he added horns. For every other selection on the album I find it easy to imagine it without horns. Not so "Man's Temptation". No horns, no opening to the tune.

Sorry if I am belaboring this. I've been carrying this notion around ever since I got the album on vinyl. Until now I had no avenue or reason to express my opinion, except when I commented on Kooper's Web site.

Sorry if this is boring you.
Best,

Stevieg

Boring? not at all! But I think until you have an official word from the man himself - I'd give Al Kooper credit for being a great producer/arranger (as well as artist/player) to make that song into the classic it became regardless or exactly what he had to do to make that happen. He could have shaped/moulded the original recording to fit with the horn arrangement in any number of ways available to him at that point. Look what George Martin did for the Beatles - look what Teo Maceo did for late 60's-70's Miles. I think Al Kooper is most known as an arranger/producer of the highest order. (and a great Hammond player as well!) Singer? He was the archetypical singer/song-writer who sang well enough to deliver his songs but would never be heralded as a great singer.

 

[taosword]

Real jamming, where you listen to the what the other people in the group are playing and try to compliment it is hard work. Most jams are just a bunch of people wanking away with no concept of what anyone else is playing. Just like many open mics - every man (or woman) for themselves; it's their chance to show off.

Good point. I do a lot of jamming at a Blues club and since it is an open stage, some nights are jamming and other nights are just a bunch of schreaders playing over each other. In the jamming we all play with each other and take turns soloing. I usually have to assert myself as a bass player for solos since so many blues players think the bass is just for backing up their leads and singing. Not! These jams are where we all can try out new things, make mistakes and use them as a spring board to places we may not usually go on our instrument. These new places then may find there way into existing or developing songs we are playing in our different bands. The various kinds of blues songs, although seemingly simple, and mostly 3 and 4 chords and some of their variations are really good for this. Also not everyone has to know the particular song but just the chords and feel to improvise on it.

 

[lfmn16]

Good point. I do a lot of jamming at a Blues club and since it is an open stage, some nights are jamming and other nights are just a bunch of schreaders playing over each other. In the jamming we all play with each other and take turns soloing. I usually have to assert myself as a bass player for solos since so many blues players think the bass is just for backing up their leads and singing. Not! These jams are where we all can try out new things, make mistakes and use them as a spring board to places we may not usually go on our instrument. These new places then may find there way into existing or developing songs we are playing in our different bands. The various kinds of blues songs, although seemingly simple, and mostly 3 and 4 chords and some of their variations are really good for this. Also not everyone has to know the particular song but just the chords and feel to improvise on it.

Yup, way to many people out there that think because they know three chords, they can play the blues. Playing in a good blues band takes a lot of thought. You need to pick 30-40 blues tunes that don't all sound alike. To many bands play the same song 30 times, with different lyrics.

 

[King Kolon]

Yup, way to many people out there that think because they know three chords, they can play the blues. Playing in a good blues band takes a lot of thought. You need to pick 30-40 blues tunes that don't all sound alike. To many bands play the same song 30 times, with different lyrics.

Boy have you got that Right. I am in a Blues Band and it's a Constant Struggle. We have Two Hundred Songs in Ten Different Styles of Blues and Southern Classic Rock & Roll. I now am gonna open my Own Club, but not where l am. New State, New Location, New People. Start Fresh, it's gotta be Done every so Often. To Keep things Alive and Fresh and Moving Forward, not Moving Backwards

 

[taosword]

Yup, way to many people out there that think because they know three chords, they can play the blues. Playing in a good blues band takes a lot of thought. You need to pick 30-40 blues tunes that don't all sound alike. To many bands play the same song 30 times, with different lyrics.

Exactly. A good blues type drummer that knows all the shuffles and how to rock the blues helps. We have had good jazz guitar and horn players come and try and jam and really do not know how to use those few chords for blues which surprised me the first time I heard them. And for others who seem to need to read or have it all prearranged also have a difficult time with those few chords. The phrasing, the rests, the sustained notes are part of the art of it. It's like an emotional conversation.

 

[JIO]

Exactly. A good blues type drummer that knows all the shuffles and how to rock the blues helps. We have had good jazz guitar and horn players come and try and jam and really do not know how to use those few chords for blues which surprised me the first time I heard them. And for others who seem to need to read or have it all prearranged also have a difficult time with those few chords. The phrasing, the rests, the sustained notes are part of the art of it. It's like an emotional conversation.

And there's blues running through many genre's of music. My bands play "I'm A Spy (in the house of love)" by the Doors - blues with that 70's LA rock spin... blues winds it's way through so much music. We pay through the song and then vamp over the body at the end for an extended outro - I never play it the same twice.

 

[Munjibunga]

Too many people (usually guitarists) consider noodling their three favorite riffs "jamming."

 

[krysh]

...and saxophone players...

 

[BigBeatNut]

In the most basic of ways, an open mic (mix of knows and unknowns) can turn into/become a jam, but a jam session (knowns) is a deliberate focused event. As in, you know the participants and they are collected to embark on a session of improvised music. The broadest sense of "open" overlaps, but an open mic is a crap-shoot by comparison.

So are jazz jams and blues jams not really jams then, because the chord structure and (for jazz jams) the melody are already established before playing ?

Rhetorical question, not looking to find an answer (same as my original question). More wanting to encourage the idea that there are different kinds of jams, all valid, and to talk about "the death of jamming" necessitates identifying what kind of jam in you're talking about, before having a sensible conversation.

 

[kesslari]

Was invited to a jam (mostly Dead) last night. Really, really good players from all over Nor Cal and a few from Arizona who've known each other a long time.
People listened. We played a wide range of tunes (R&B, Funk, Dead repertoire) and even some Hindustani music. People listened and played complimentary parts.
Their regular bassist couldn't make it and I got the call. Never met any of them before, but I'm pretty sure I'll play with some of them again.
It was good...

 

[JIO]

So are jazz jams and blues jams not really jams then, because the chord structure and (for jazz jams) the melody are already established before playing ?

Rhetorical question, not looking to find an answer (same as my original question). More wanting to encourage the idea that there are different kinds of jams, all valid, and to talk about "the death of jamming" necessitates identifying what kind of jam in you're talking about, before having a sensible conversation.

Yes, well put. In the larger sense they are all technically 'jams' because essentially the same things are in play; listening, conversing via your axe or voice (or both) and creating something on the fly. Every musician has their own personal references to draw from and familiar territories (like islands) to bridge into if floundering. The wider/deeper your experience, the more possibilities are at your disposal. So in order not just to "go through the motions", it's how you wander from the well-worn path that determines if you 'stretch' into unexpected areas and discoveries (or not). When I first started jamming with the players I meet with (less frequently these days), it was understood that there were no expected boundaries and no 'mistakes'. Anything goes, and if you fall on your face attempting to get there - try something else. I would get "I don't know what you were playing - but it was cool!" remarks sometimes, and "what the @*# was that?" other times. As long as the second remark was less frequent that the first - everyone was willing to invite you back! The most open jam session if done with open ears and each players references - will slip into funk, or rock, or pop, or jazz, or whatever hybrid of any kind of music it evolves into. That's what I mean referring to an "open jam-session", compared to a blues, or jazz framed jam session playing within classic frameworks punctuated by improvised solo's/breaks. Those soloists are 'jamming' over the changes - but the framework is pre-established.

 

[richntiff]

I've honestly never played a 'standard blues jam'. But I can tell you I'd rather very likely be waterboarded while having bamboo shoved up my fingernails than participate in one. I don't care how many I-V-IV variations you come up with.

EDIT - I may have had 2 bourbons in me when I first posted this. Please excuse my rant My image of a 'standard blues jam' is a bunch of people the can barely play endlessly riffing and playing a pentatonic scale over the top. I can imagine a jam with talented creative players is a much much different scene. Apologies if I offended - I tend to run my mouth at times..

 

[JIO]

I've honestly never played a 'standard blues jam'. But I can tell you I'd rather very likely be waterboarded while having bamboo shoved up my fingernails than participate in one. I don't care how many I-V-IV variations you come up with.

Hah! I don't have such a visceral reaction to playing the blues but am generally not creatively drawn to that format either. I was fortunate enough to play with a Mississippi Delta born bluesman in Chicago (late 70's-80's) and it was a experience I'll never forget. The similarity to improvised playing with Eddie (Taylor) was keeping a keen eye on his left hand - you never knew if he would extend or cut-off a phrase or measure and had to be ready to stop and change on a dime. Plus, he was playing 2nd generation material, some of which he absorbed as a little kid milling around the rent parties in the south with legendary players like Sun House providing the music. Needless to say, the blues is a iconic indigenous art-form that when played with real feeling, skill and presentation - it is an undeniably important genre of music.

But I hear you as far as the 12-bar rehash - I off & on sit in with a power trio and the guitarists writes his own material with a bend toward roadhouse rock/blues. If he presents the beginnings to a new song (12 bar associated) I always throw a wrench in to push it into another format. If you want an example of how the blues can rock with a fresh interpretation - give this a listen -

...with the awesome Michael Henderson on Fender bass -

 

[stevieg]

Boring? not at all! But I think until you have an official word from the man himself - I'd give Al Kooper credit for being a great producer/arranger (as well as artist/player) to make that song into the classic it became regardless or exactly what he had to do to make that happen. He could have shaped/moulded the original recording to fit with the horn arrangement in any number of ways available to him at that point. Look what George Martin did for the Beatles - look what Teo Maceo did for late 60's-70's Miles. I think Al Kooper is most known as an arranger/producer of the highest order. (and a great Hammond player as well!) Singer? He was the archetypical singer/song-writer who sang well enough to deliver his songs but would never be heralded as a great singer.

Jiq, I agree with you.

It's just that in the notes to "Super Session" Kooper notes that the hores were an "afterthought". It's very possible he had the horn arrangement for "Man's Temptation" worked out in advance and did, in fact, add the arrangement as an "afterthought".

I'm just disappointed he didn't respond to my question. I have always regarded Kooper as very much in touch with his fans.

Right now a Kooper tune came on Pandora. "(Please Not) One More Time". Great tune covered well by McGuinn on "Peace on You".

Kooper deserves far more accolades than he gets!!!

-S