The death of jamming

[Pug the Pig]

Back in the day, most of our songs and material was arrived at by effectively jamming, I'd invent a bass line, drummer play with it, guitarist layer some stuff over that, write some words, job done!
Obviously at times any one of us could have something we'd dreamed up previously and wrangle about with that in the above process..I'm putting all this in the simplest terms of course.
So...How do the kids invent stuff now then I wonder?

 

[Robroy]

I have another (humorous) thread going about jam bands. On a more serious note, I've been running jams for years, and probably always will. I'm saddened that so many people have lost the spirit of true jamming- Improvisation, and spontaneity.
Every week I end up with a bunch of GREAT players who just want to play songs. Maybe add a second (third...fourth) guitar solo, but the jamming aspect is all but gone.
I try to push my guests boundries, and a FEW of them get it. Go to double time feel, or a modulation, or switch up a groove- reggae Zeppelin, or metal Peaches and Herb.
I try to keep it interesting, and push peoples boundries.
I often just hit a brick wall. If it ain't on the record, they don't want to try it.
Too many automatons, not enough free spirits.
Another Pride and Joy.......in the same key as the record.....
Rant over.

I sort of cut my teeth on blues jams in the seattle area with the Randy Oxford Jams. I then ended up doing most of the ones around there. Sadly, it taught me to really not enjoy the blues at all.

When I moved to KY I did the Stevie Ray's blues jams a couple of times. They seemed nice, but being new I never felt like I was going to be part of that crowd so I stopped going. Well, I did go to their "rock jam" once, thinking it would finally be something different. Nope. The band started with a blues song and then when I got up with my bass and asked if I could sing House of the Rising Sun, they acted like they had never heard the song. They played it that way too.

I've learned that the only time I like to do jams is if I'm between bands. And even then I'm no longer that interested. And it's for pretty much the reasons you mentioned.

Also, some singers think that since they can't sing it means they have a good "blues" voice. Nope. It means they can't sing.

 

[JIO]

Also, some singers think that since they can't sing it means they have a good "blues" voice. Nope. It means they can't sing.

In art-sculpture the saying goes "if you can't make good art, make it big and if that doesn't help - paint it red" I think it was basically aimed at sculptures like Mark di Suvero made. This one is here in SF across from The Legion of Honor in the Presidio. I really don't have a problem with his work in general - I've seen far worse, but you place a big red steel sculpture in a public place and suddenly everybody's an art critic.

Blues is basic but done right requires some serious ability of the singer to tap in/express 'the blues' feeling. Otherwise it's just another style of music.

 

[Myzee]

In a way I wish I had a place where I could host some jam sessions. Even though I am in two bands, jamming the odd time, helps keep the brain fresh.....changes it up from the songs I play routinely in those bands.

 

[7615]

Volume and dynamics. Even many long term musicians still abuse these two foundational ensemble ingredients. (both in structured and improvisational music) In my band the singer being heard and heard clearly so an audience member can follow the lyrics is the #1 goal. Once that is determined/set everyone else adjusts their volume according. Even with instrumental music, I'd much rather have an audience ask the band to turn up than have them move toward the back or leave because we are too loud. I heard a cool metal band play at our local music-centric tavern who were dense, dynamic and nuanced w/o being deafeningly loud. In fact, they were nuanced because they weren't too loud. If a musician can't play dynamically at lower volumes - they definitely need to work on that and that means on their own, not in an ensemble.

I often tell the guitar player to give the singer a break. I am serious but it gets a laugh. The guitar player is the singer.

 

[The old guy]

I didn't start playing bass until my 60's so the years will limit how much skill I can acquire. Despite this I have been fortunate to get work and experience the joy of sharing in the creation of music. I really don't care what it is I play, I just love playing. Even thought I never played an instrument before the bass, I spent most of my life attending live performances at least once a week and regularly more. Through the years I learned some of the rudimentary basics of music theory and that helped when I started playing. I have had to learn in excess of 250 songs over these past 6 years. The songs have given me an ear for chord progressions in a whole different way than just listening has. I learned the original bass lines note for note so I could understand how the bassist saw his roll in relation to the melodic structure and then began experimenting with my own spontaneous changes when I played. Now I can often anticipate progressions in original works I haven't heard before and in doing so create some amalgamation from bass lines I have learned in the past. I am not good but I can at least hang in lower level jams now. Long point is playing songs and jamming for me is interrelated. I would be limited if I didn't have both aspects.

Back in 1969 I heard the Grateful Dead play Dark Star at the Filmore in San Fran and was knocked off my feet. How did they do it? I could tell they were all playing off each other. How did they know where each other was going? As they were leaving the stage I got Garcia's attention and asked him that question. "We got sign posts" he said " We move to the sign posts", I am still not sure I know what he meant, but I always assumed it meant that there was a minimal structure underlying the jam and they had places where they could rest and recharge during the jam. To this day I believe the act of jamming where in a cohesive whole results is one of the highest expression of music. It would be amazing to know that experience once before my final jump into the abyss

As concerns jamming, the problem is the expression is limited to a great extend by the weakest link (which sadly is often me!) So if I join a jam and realize the others there are quite a bit more accomplished than I am, I let them know I realize it, ask if I can hang for a few rounds to learn something and then move on. I think that is fair and they seem to appreciate it. I get to learn and try things out, they will often throw a suggestion or two my way and I don't hold them back for a long time

 

[Ulf_Hansson]

I have copies of all the unofficial Real Books, but they weren't allowed on any of the 100+ jazz gigs I played prior to 2008 (upright & electric).

Not allowed? It is great to know a lot of music by heart, but why make it a rule to not allow cheat sheets? What about taking requests, backing a guest artist, filling in for someone?

 

[hbarcat]

I was in my first band at 18, a heavy metal cover band with lots of originals. At practice, my band mates and I always warmed up with a highly improvised jam. We'd randonly sekect a key and then pick someone to improvise a solo riff or progression. It could even be the drummer starting us off.

Then, we'd add parts as we felt appropriate and experiment with the theme and variations, always letting the initial improviser lead any changes. Sometimes this would be five or ten minutes but sometimes a half an hour or more.

Not only was this a good warm-up, but it also taught us serious improvisational skills and even generated some ideas for new songs. And it was fun.

Over the decades, having been in almost a dozen rock bands of various types, I've tried to keep the practice alive, but sadly, many players simply don't see the value of it and refuse to allow it. My current band is a three piece original band best described as a funk version of Jethro Tull and we always look forward to the opening jam.

An added benefit is, if the band is comfortable enough doing this, you can whip out an improv jam in a live show as a,refreshing xmchange of pace from the old set list. As far as the audience is concerned, the song is as rehearsed as any other.

 

[IamGroot]

Not allowed? It is great to know a lot of music by heart, but why make it a rule to not allow cheat sheets? What about taking requests, backing a guest artist, filling in for someone?

I havent done jazz in a decade. For the oncall GIGs ( not jams), you needed to know the stds in all 12 keys. If you didnt, there was always someone else ready to take your place. The piano players were rarely stumped, and you hung on for dear life if you didnt know the tune. Good incentive for ear training.

For JAMs the better jazz jams, you needed to know the commonly called tunes, period. Something obscure, you could pull out the book. Remember, these guys played gigs weekly where real books werent allowed. Everyone knew the commonly called tunes. Low end coffee house jams, real books were ok.

 

[Ulf_Hansson]

I havent done jazz in a decade. For the oncall GIGs ( not jams), you needed to know the stds in all 12 keys. If you didnt, there was always someone else ready to take your place. The piano players were rarely stumped, and you hung on for dear life if you didnt know the tune. Good incentive for ear training.

For JAMs the better jazz jams, you needed to know the commonly called tunes, period. Something obscure, you could pull out the book. Remember, these guys played gigs weekly where real books werent allowed. Everyone knew the commonly called tunes. Low end coffee house jams, real books were ok.

Thanks, I understand. Must be different scenes. I have played professionally for something like 25 years, mostly other genres than plain standards, but on the jazz gigs I do we use the tools available to us to make a professional performance. There are almost always some original charts on the set list, so no one frowns upon a music stand or tablet. That's why I asked.

 

[glocke1]

I was in my first band at 18, a heavy metal cover band with lots of originals. At practice, my band mates and I always warmed up with a highly improvised jam. We'd randonly sekect a key and then pick someone to improvise a solo riff or progression. It could even be the drummer starting us off.

Then, we'd add parts as we felt appropriate and experiment with the theme and variations, always letting the initial improviser lead any changes. Sometimes this would be five or ten minutes but sometimes a half an hour or more.

Not only was this a good warm-up, but it also taught us serious improvisational skills and even generated some ideas for new songs. And it was fun.

Over the decades, having been in almost a dozen rock bands of various types, I've tried to keep the practice alive, but sadly, many players simply don't see the value of it and refuse to allow it. My current band is a three piece original band best described as a funk version of Jethro Tull and we always look forward to the opening jam.

An added benefit is, if the band is comfortable enough doing this, you can whip out an improv jam in a live show as a,refreshing xmchange of pace from the old set list. As far as the audience is concerned, the song is as rehearsed as any other.

bolded...ditto. Havent played like that in years, frankly I don't think anyone I currently play with is even capable of playing like that. While competent players, they play songs well but can't improvise in the way you posted about.

 

[JIO]

I didn't start playing bass until my 60's so the years will limit how much skill I can acquire. Despite this I have been fortunate to get work and experience the joy of sharing in the creation of music. I really don't care what it is I play, I just love playing. Even thought I never played an instrument before the bass, I spent most of my life attending live performances at least once a week and regularly more. Through the years I learned some of the rudimentary basics of music theory and that helped when I started playing. I have had to learn in excess of 250 songs over these past 6 years. The songs have given me an ear for chord progressions in a whole different way than just listening has. I learned the original bass lines note for note so I could understand how the bassist saw his roll in relation to the melodic structure and then began experimenting with my own spontaneous changes when I played. Now I can often anticipate progressions in original works I haven't heard before and in doing so create some amalgamation from bass lines I have learned in the past. I am not good but I can at least hang in lower level jams now. Long point is playing songs and jamming for me is interrelated. I would be limited if I didn't have both aspects.

Back in 1969 I heard the Grateful Dead play Dark Star at the Filmore in San Fran and was knocked off my feet. How did they do it? I could tell they were all playing off each other. How did they know where each other was going? As they were leaving the stage I got Garcia's attention and asked him that question. "We got sign posts" he said " We move to the sign posts", I am still not sure I know what he meant, but I always assumed it meant that there was a minimal structure underlying the jam and they had places where they could rest and recharge during the jam. To this day I believe the act of jamming where in a cohesive whole results is one of the highest expression of music. It would be amazing to know that experience once before my final jump into the abyss

As concerns jamming, the problem is the expression is limited to a great extend by the weakest link (which sadly is often me!) So if I join a jam and realize the others there are quite a bit more accomplished than I am, I let them know I realize it, ask if I can hang for a few rounds to learn something and then move on. I think that is fair and they seem to appreciate it. I get to learn and try things out, they will often throw a suggestion or two my way and I don't hold them back for a long time

All good points. Wow, 250 songs in 6 years - that's pretty impressive. I agree with your assessment of the benefit of learning how a player structures their part. I've learned the same way over many years and continue to do so.

Related to the JG 'sign post' comment, I was in a band where we learned a number of short very tight/dynamic, arranged sections (we called them 'islands') and used them within an improv performance. It was like drifting in the ocean knowing there were these islands to grab onto when the 'drift' wasn't going anywhere. We'd start improv and develop it until locking into one of the islands sections which were very solid/rehearsed, and then drift away from it toward the next island. I read that TGD used in-ear communication during their jam sections to instigate a change etc. John Zorn conducted a spontaneous cacophony using various signs and symbols with his Cobra project.

As a bass player, a jam can be a great workout challenging what bass does best.

 

[IamGroot]

250 songs sounds like a lot of songs, but you can make it easier if you have a "system" and a modest amount of ear skills.

The "System"
1 Memorize the melody and be able to play it without open strings. Using no open strings makes the melody transposable.

2 If there is a bass hook, memorize that too. No open strings if possible. If not possible, learn it up a 4th as well.

3 Look at the song chord structure.
Is it a 1 4 5?
Does it 2 5 1?
Have cadences ( cycle of 4ths, 1 6 2 5, etc)
Other familiar chord patterns.(All of Me)
Songs with unusual intervals (Night & Day, Old Love).
Songs that have genre interval movements like root, b7, b6 in bluegrass and rock.
Etc.

If you can link a song to a melody and a chord pattern, it makes it much easier to remember. And if you forget something, you can fall back on your ears.

Hope this helps.

Edit:
One more cadence you should know is a chromatic walk down of 4 notes. Think "Fooled Around and fell in love" or "Hold On Loosely". That 4 note movement downward is actually R 5 b7 4.

In all the discussions above, I assumed you have a fluent grasp of all 7 major modes in your ear and fingers, so the actual bass walking line comes out on autopilot. Thats a real key skill.

One more cadence. b7 4 1. Heartache Tonight

Edit 2 Sweet Home Alabama is 1 b7 4

 

[TwentyHz]

...Related to the JG 'sign post' comment...'islands' ...

Yep. Other kinds of sign posts:

• smaller-than-island stepping stones that are familiar. For us, they are not so rehearsed, but more like comfortable inevitable entropy destinations
• little cues/phrases suggest it's time to gather ourselves together and return to the verse.. not rehearsed, but you know.. settling into a wide open plain, or falling into kind of do an airy walking pace, or crescendo-ing in what one would think is likely the last for a while (though often we find there's one more bigger one possible)
• musical personality traits -- my guitarist and I have a lot of hours together - I can tell when he's running out of steam or ideas, or starting to fracture... and I (or the drummer and I) can do things to help rake the leaves in ease us into the next chapter
• and sometimes I'll wield a signpost like a big lovin' hammer, and kinda ease into some big pulsing low end w/ the kick to impose a little order

What's funny (to us) is that we have given up on trying to use visual cues... we gotta go by ear.. our faces do not make sense... we look at each other and think we are clearly implying something, but the other guy usually interprets it to mean something very different.

Same with talking. When we are in deep... the most either of us can say is a semi-intelligible word skipping string of nonsense. neither of can come with words like "vers", chorus", etc. We say things like "let's do the | with | chord"/ It's like the verbal part of our brain is on loan to something else.

 

[IamGroot]

I havent done jazz in a decade. For the oncall GIGs ( not jams), you needed to know the stds in all 12 keys. If you didnt, there was always someone else ready to take your place. The piano players were rarely stumped, and you hung on for dear life if you didnt know the tune. Good incentive for ear training.

For JAMs the better jazz jams, you needed to know the commonly called tunes, period. Something obscure, you could pull out the book. Remember, these guys played gigs weekly where real books werent allowed. Everyone knew the commonly called tunes. Low end coffee house jams, real books were ok.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[stonetone7]

It's just another aspect of playing, and it's relevant if you're trying to write original music because it is a good tool for coming up with new ideas, or just building chemistry between musicians - I think the latter is important for cover bands.

Very important. There is chops/technical skill, and there is chemistry/musical telepathy. A band that has both will always be better than a band that has just one or the other.

What we reductively call jamming - a mix of adventurous spirit, a bulletproof ear, solid grasp of theory, and determination to listen - shouldn't panned as mindless or useless because being able to do it makes you better at everything else you do.

I've played in all three scenarios, but sadly encountered the whole package in my first real band and haven't recaptured it in the 20 years since. It's rare. Move mountains to keep it if'n you got it.

 

[Two-Spirit]

I love improvising sometimes. I'm into a lot of styles and I'm basically looking for a band to play with on the weekends. I can't stay up late anymore so I'd play with either jam or songs. Everybody's crazy as hell. I know a lot of mediocre to awful musicians and singers that wan't me to gig late and even go on tour with them. I wish I could just jam with them but that ain't happening. One singer even wanted me to switch back to guitar and teach him how to play bass.
I wan't to get a bigger amp and I think I'll buy it at the local music store instead of MF. There has to be something going on in this town.

 

[Two-Spirit]

It's the advent of YouTube musicians. A lot of people are learning note for note from there. I lose a lot of students because I teach practical theory. The ones who get it become monsters. They are learning Nashville Number System first lesson and are playing (without fills) the first lesson. They are trained to use their ear and apply the things that they learn in every lessons.

Their friends may learn songs, but within 3 months, my guys are playing circles around the other teachers students... and they actually tend to stick with the instrument.

I don't mind note for note guys as long as they aren't so anal retentive I can't work with then. It ain't no orchestra.

 

[JIO]

Very important. There is chops/technical skill, and there is chemistry/musical telepathy. A band that has both will always be better than a band that has just one or the other.

What we reductively call jamming - a mix of adventurous spirit, a bulletproof ear, solid grasp of theory, and determination to listen - shouldn't panned as mindless or useless because being able to do it makes you better at everything else you do.

I've played in all three scenarios, but sadly encountered the whole package in my first real band and haven't recaptured it in the 20 years since. It's rare. Move mountains to keep it if'n you got it.

Yep, well put. So many elements come into play and so many potential trip-wires to be avoided. Hard to 'teach' improvisation, at least in a conventional way - but I think it's possible if everyone's receptive. However, venturing into spontaneous expression is too risky for some people regardless of their talent.

 

[BigBeatNut]

I have learned the difference between 'open mike' and 'jam' from this thread. It must be a common misunderstanding.

I can think of several variations of what might be called "jams".

1. Genre (at a minimum 'blues', 'jazz', 'popular covers', 'singer songwriter' and 'not defined till we start'.)
2. Whether the musicians have been picked at random, or (at the other end of the scale) know eachother so well that effectively rehearsed songs can be played
3. Working from a known chord structure (or even song) or not

So what exactly defines the two variations 'open mike' and 'jam' ?

I have my own definitions, but I can think of lots of borderline cases. Is a blues jam an 'open mike' for instance, because every musician knows the structure (if not the exact song) ?