- Jun 30, 2010
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- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
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Jamming is good, if it works.
I mean, what, you're going to go out on stage and improvise?
I'd strongly suggest against it. You need to have an audience base that really, really likes you guys.
I have some early recordings by the Doors. Those guys didn't screw about.
I also have some of their last concerts and boy! Even though Morrison is stoned out of his mind, and Manzarek is singing to cover up, man, and Robbie and Ray are jamming and Densmore is slamming, the girls and the boys can't get enough! After all, this is an "established" band.
Another band like this is probably Primus. But you have to be regarded as a dependable act.
Unless you have your basics down, I would not jam on stage. People won't enjoy it and they'll catch on. You are literally wearing the night (and them) down.
Jesus, I hate bands that improvise on stage and then implode, for the record.
I mean, what, you're going to go out on stage and improvise?
I'd strongly suggest against it. You need to have an audience base that really, really likes you guys.
I have some early recordings by the Doors. Those guys didn't screw about.
I also have some of their last concerts and boy! Even though Morrison is stoned out of his mind, and Manzarek is singing to cover up, man, and Robbie and Ray are jamming and Densmore is slamming, the girls and the boys can't get enough! After all, this is an "established" band.
Another band like this is probably Primus. But you have to be regarded as a dependable act.
Unless you have your basics down, I would not jam on stage. People won't enjoy it and they'll catch on. You are literally wearing the night (and them) down.
Jesus, I hate bands that improvise on stage and then implode, for the record.
- Jun 30, 2010
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- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
In the latest issue of BassPlayer magazine, there's an interview with bass player Corey McCormick. Interesting to this thread/topic, his recent gig is with Lukas Nelson (Willi's son) and he has also played with Neil Young. He said neither artist rehearses or prepares (with the band) for live shows. ~!~ Neil Young is an advocate of 'a rough edge' in his music - it's what he is known for whether one knows it or not. And like father like son - apparently Lukas wants to continue the "jump into the unknown" concept into his live performances. A cynic would blurt out a list of negative opinions about this, (Neil is such a sloppy guitarist, and yes, you don't need to remind everyone that Willi is a pot-head) but as someone who has experienced such, I have a more relative (less opinionated) insight to offer. (ftr- I love Neils playing and always have)
In the early 80's I played with Mississippi Delta bluesman Eddie Taylor in Chicago. I got the gig sitting in at a 4 hr live show cold and we never rehearsed. Yes, it was the blues and somewhat predictable but Eddie was not. (predictable) Not deliberately so, or because he was trying to be clever - but because he played his music the way he felt it - his reference being legendary blues players like Son House and Jimmy Reed who he played with. He told a story about being a kid and sneaking under a "house party" (to raise rent) where Son House was playing. Those players were not perfectionist. If he felt like truncating a 12 bar, or adding another bar - he did it instinctually and it always sounded correct. What that meant for me is that I watched his left hand like a hawk. I learned to move when he moved and change course on a dime. It created a very organic performance that an over-rehearsed band can never replicate - it delivered the 'feel', and in this case it delivered the blues which is all about feel.
So in summery - the one thing a truly successful 'jam' can offer is relying on your feel as a player instead of your skill at exact repeating of a phrase or baseline in a prescribed arraignment/song. Nothing wrong with that either, but in my book anyway it still needs 'feel' to make it music.
In the early 80's I played with Mississippi Delta bluesman Eddie Taylor in Chicago. I got the gig sitting in at a 4 hr live show cold and we never rehearsed. Yes, it was the blues and somewhat predictable but Eddie was not. (predictable) Not deliberately so, or because he was trying to be clever - but because he played his music the way he felt it - his reference being legendary blues players like Son House and Jimmy Reed who he played with. He told a story about being a kid and sneaking under a "house party" (to raise rent) where Son House was playing. Those players were not perfectionist. If he felt like truncating a 12 bar, or adding another bar - he did it instinctually and it always sounded correct. What that meant for me is that I watched his left hand like a hawk. I learned to move when he moved and change course on a dime. It created a very organic performance that an over-rehearsed band can never replicate - it delivered the 'feel', and in this case it delivered the blues which is all about feel.
So in summery - the one thing a truly successful 'jam' can offer is relying on your feel as a player instead of your skill at exact repeating of a phrase or baseline in a prescribed arraignment/song. Nothing wrong with that either, but in my book anyway it still needs 'feel' to make it music.
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Years ago, I was asked to show up at a blues jam as a means to audition for a new band. I was pretty nervous because I had never actually jammed before. Some of the talent in the room was jaw-dropping, especially one of the bass players (who later became a friend of mine). The drummer I was going to play with was very experienced, and about 25 years my senior. He told me to relax and just go with it.
I had learnt Pride & Joy, because well it's a blues jam and sure enough that was the first song they called. Lucky me! Then the guitar player shouted: "Do you know 'Messin With The Kid?'" I didn't, so got told: "It's in A." Off we went. Don't really recall what the third song was, but I butchered it completely. Afterwards, the keys player who was apparently also on stage (I did not hear keys during our 3-song set) told me: "You play a lot more diverse lines than the average blues bass player." I took it for the compliment it was meant to be. Whilst I did attend a handful of jams after that, I never really liked it at the time. Mostly lack of confidence. Now, I kind of regret not going more often, it would have broadened my skills as well as my network.
Last weekend I went to a gig where the headliner took off in some pretty long jams. Some of those were really good, some weren't. I wasn't a big fan of their music (went for the 2nd act, and figured I would stay for the headliner) but all in all the jamming aspect made up for their somewhat monotonous originals.
My current band seems to be integrating jams into the covers we do. We'll often start a song the same way, but rarely finish it. This is good in itself but we are still building our repertoire which means we really should focus on building a set list first, and then taking it places. On the other hand, who cares! We're having fun and that really IS why I am in it these days.
I had learnt Pride & Joy, because well it's a blues jam and sure enough that was the first song they called. Lucky me! Then the guitar player shouted: "Do you know 'Messin With The Kid?'" I didn't, so got told: "It's in A." Off we went. Don't really recall what the third song was, but I butchered it completely. Afterwards, the keys player who was apparently also on stage (I did not hear keys during our 3-song set) told me: "You play a lot more diverse lines than the average blues bass player." I took it for the compliment it was meant to be. Whilst I did attend a handful of jams after that, I never really liked it at the time. Mostly lack of confidence. Now, I kind of regret not going more often, it would have broadened my skills as well as my network.
Last weekend I went to a gig where the headliner took off in some pretty long jams. Some of those were really good, some weren't. I wasn't a big fan of their music (went for the 2nd act, and figured I would stay for the headliner) but all in all the jamming aspect made up for their somewhat monotonous originals.
My current band seems to be integrating jams into the covers we do. We'll often start a song the same way, but rarely finish it. This is good in itself but we are still building our repertoire which means we really should focus on building a set list first, and then taking it places. On the other hand, who cares! We're having fun and that really IS why I am in it these days.
- Jun 30, 2010
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- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
I've had similar assessments of my playing when jamming, like "I'm not sure where that came from, but it was cool". Sometimes the second part of their reply wasn't there and I've learned from that also. I think it's partially from allowing yourself to wander from our established role as a bass player, at least it's that way for me. Listening to players like Jack Cassidy, Tim Bogert, John Entwistle and Jack Bruce (especially) when I was first starting out gave me permission to not play only roots/fifths. Jack Cassidy was more organic, Tim Bogert and John Entwistle were almost lead players, and Jack Bruce brought a jazz sensibility to his playing. They expanded the way (rock) bass fit into the mix.
For many years I mostly jammed and in the process my skills were lacking in playing songs and how to craft and play structured bass-lines. I've always loved listening to music but I started really focusing on the bass-lines in every song I heard in any type/style of music. What was the bassist's input and how did it help shape the overall song? Needless to say, take the bass out of any song and it sounds very different. Immersing myself into songs/bass-lines educated me to know where to move on the fretboard when jamming. In an ideal situation, I can hear/sense where I can move within the flow of the jam instinctualy based on my internalized catalog of bass-lines/modes. There are classic ways a bass can steer the ship into familiar waters, waters everyone responds to because they are so revisited over the decades. It's a tight-rope walk however because oft repeated lines can also be cliche. And I don't mean playing the base-line of a familiar song, but playing in a way that moves the flow successfully in the way that that reference/mode moved that song.
It's not jamming or structured songs - one can inform the other to make your playing ... diverse. I'll take that compliment any day.
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- Dec 21, 2007
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- Lark in the Morning Instructional Videos; Audix Microphones
Another "non-jamming jam band" event last night. First time with these folks. The good - no rehearsal, just jump in, so not a lot of time invested. But the performanes were "play the song, one short solo, end song, next song". In part the singer was young and enthusiastic and kept cutting soloists off. In other part, the drummer was solid but not able to change dynamics or shift the grooves (other than losing the tempo periodically).
On the positive side, my rig sounded great
On the positive side, my rig sounded great
- Jun 30, 2010
- 49,625
- 222,183
- Disclosures
- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
Another "non-jamming jam band" event last night. First time with these folks. The good - no rehearsal, just jump in, so not a lot of time invested. But the performanes were "play the song, one short solo, end song, next song". In part the singer was young and enthusiastic and kept cutting soloists off. In other part, the drummer was solid but not able to change dynamics or shift the grooves (other than losing the tempo periodically).
On the positive side, my rig sounded great
When it comes to lead singers vs lead guitarists - now you are talk'n about the battle of the ego's.
- Jun 30, 2010
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Hard to tell sometimes in print - is this a remark of agreement of her assessment or a cynical response?
Most of the Blues bands I've played in played very few standard 12 bar songs. That would be boring for both the audience and the players. We would play songs like 'Same Old Blues' by Freddie King, 'Breaking Out On Top' by Philip Guy, 'If Love Was A Train' by Michelle Shocked and 'Third Stone From The Sun' by Hendrix. The challenge was in playing them as well or better than the original. Getting the groove, dynamics and melody right. When that happened I found it more satisfying than any improvisational jam.
I have played with people who love to improvise. One of them had won a title as the World's Greatest Harmonica Player. I found those improvisational jams lacked enough structure to be satisfying. A guitar player in one of my first bands said "There are no rules." He would meander off into the ozone layer and play unstructured lines that were tiring to listen to. The point of music is to find the structures in timing, dynamics and melody. Great songs have found those structures and it is challenging and satisfying to articulately recreate them. While improvisational jamming can discover new structures, it is mostly wandering around looking and not finding.
Both directions have their advantages and disadvantages. If you are finding playing covers boring, it is because the repertoire is too limited. After forty years of playing I am still hoping to meet players who can play Earl Hooker's 'Two Bugs And A Roach' well.
oh really? So if I can't do self-indulgent, mindless jamming, I don't actually "play music"? LOL.
how arrogant
What I tried saying was you shouldn't consider classics as barriers to creativity. Newton said, with regard to Galileo and DesCartes, "I have only seen farther because I stood on the shoulders of giants."
I have played with creative, successful musicians and they have all loved and studied classics. Gordie Johnson, the guitarist of Big Sugar, played with my band, the Perennials, and played Blues classics better than any guitarist I have played with.
The best, most creative bass player I know in Toronto is Terry Wilkens. He plays more classics, better than any bass player I know of. He is also the bass player on more records than any bass player I know of in Toronto: Lighthouse, Rough Trade, Big Sugar, The Canadian Aces, John Hammond....
Creativity doesn't come from nowhere. Learning classics exceptionally well is not a barrier to creativity. It is a foundation you can build your creativity on, but first you have to build that foundation. The guitarist who believed there were no rules, haven't heard about him in twenty five years.
I have played with creative, successful musicians and they have all loved and studied classics. Gordie Johnson, the guitarist of Big Sugar, played with my band, the Perennials, and played Blues classics better than any guitarist I have played with.
The best, most creative bass player I know in Toronto is Terry Wilkens. He plays more classics, better than any bass player I know of. He is also the bass player on more records than any bass player I know of in Toronto: Lighthouse, Rough Trade, Big Sugar, The Canadian Aces, John Hammond....
Creativity doesn't come from nowhere. Learning classics exceptionally well is not a barrier to creativity. It is a foundation you can build your creativity on, but first you have to build that foundation. The guitarist who believed there were no rules, haven't heard about him in twenty five years.
- Jun 30, 2010
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It's why I asked for clarification (post #389) - he could be sympathizing with you cynically. But even if he wasn't, there's no need to generalize those who advocate improvisation as being involved with "self-indulgent mindless jamming" - the aim of this thread is to discuss the ins and outs of the topic and so far many have contributed to that in an adult manor. The poster in question just joined tb on Tuesday and unfortunately isn't staring out on a good foot. Let's just leave it at that and continue the discussion on a higher plane.
its my opinion that a lot of "jamming" is that. Opinions aren't allowed here? that's what I think a lot of jamming that I've heard is -- mindless, self-indulgent crud. some of it is ok, but a lot of it isn't.
but I certainly don't believe that the ability to "jam" makes you a musician as compared to those of us that do not. Even if all I play is covers, I'm a "musician"
but I certainly don't believe that the ability to "jam" makes you a musician as compared to those of us that do not. Even if all I play is covers, I'm a "musician"
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not jamming means you aren't a musician? LOL. I'm a bit floored by that conclusion as well. by that definition, what does that make me? A Belgian waffle? hardly. I'll my chops up against most I see jamming.
- Jun 30, 2010
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- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
Yes, emphasis on 'your opinion' and as much as you are free to express them it can be done in a less provocative manor. If that is your intent, tb does have rules about such. We are both in agreement that the poster who made that statement is wrong and now we are aware of your opinion - let's move on shall we?
- Jun 30, 2010
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- musician/artist/owner - Gildaxe
As we all agree - the poster who bridged that statement is wrong and your reply should be directed at him, not the general forum. No one otherwise is questioning your chops.
Jamming has as much potential of being mindless self-indulgence as playing covers. It's just another aspect of playing, and it's relevant if you're trying to write original music because it is a good tool for coming up with new ideas, or just building chemistry between musicians - I think the latter is important for cover bands. Anybody who was offended by the idea that somebody who can't jam not being a musician ought to take a moment for self-reflection and personal growth.
- Jun 30, 2010
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Well put - and just so your last sentence doesn't get misconstrued... for example; when I read/hear someones opinion that I don't agree with, I'm not personally 'offended' - I simply disagree for a variety of reasons and if it means that much to me I'll state those reasons (my own opinion) civilly, not combatively.
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“Jamming” is to improvise - and that can range from over a structure to where the song structure itself is improvised.
Musician has very wide meaning and whether one can improvise or not is not necessarily part of that.
However unless one simply recreates recordings - much of arranging - orchestrating etc is refined improvisation. Idea had to come from somewhere.
Jamming in its true meaning though is helpful in being able to listen and to be able to adjust in real time. Especially important for accompanists - drummers and bassists.
The thread was a complaint that jam sessions are really open mike and with that I concur.
Jam sessions should be exploratory and are great way to hone ones listening skills and to have conversations in sound - break down walls and meet musicians.
Open mike is performance and that is disappointing when it is billed as a jam.
Musician has very wide meaning and whether one can improvise or not is not necessarily part of that.
However unless one simply recreates recordings - much of arranging - orchestrating etc is refined improvisation. Idea had to come from somewhere.
Jamming in its true meaning though is helpful in being able to listen and to be able to adjust in real time. Especially important for accompanists - drummers and bassists.
The thread was a complaint that jam sessions are really open mike and with that I concur.
Jam sessions should be exploratory and are great way to hone ones listening skills and to have conversations in sound - break down walls and meet musicians.
Open mike is performance and that is disappointing when it is billed as a jam.
