The death of jamming

[JIO]

"Jamming" is to improvise - and that can range from over a structure to where the song structure itself is improvised.

Musician has very wide meaning and whether one can improvise or not is not necessarily part of that.

However unless one simply recreates recordings - much of arranging - orchestrating etc is refined improvisation. Idea had to come from somewhere.

Jamming in its true meaning though is helpful in being able to listen and to be able to adjust in real time. Especially important for accompanists - drummers and bassists.

The thread was a complaint that jam sessions are really open mike and with that I concur.

Jam sessions should be exploratory and are great way to hone ones listening skills and to have conversations in sound - break down walls and meet musicians.

Open mike is performance and that is disappointing when it is billed as a jam.

Agree - the few open mic nights I've been a part of were a opportunity to test out a couple/few rehearsed songs in front of an audience.

The OP also stated this in her opening post: "I'm saddened that so many people have lost the spirit of true jamming- Improvisation, and spontaneity." which has also been the focus of replies and an interesting topic to consider.

 

[JIO]

This is a cool song by a Swedish band called "The Amazing" (great name) where about 1/2 way through, it transverses into what could be considered a 'jam'. It's an example of extrapolating over a structured form and also relates to how 'feel' drives that development of the second part of this song. Probably played a little differently each time they play it depending on achieving that feel, or not.

 

[12BitSlab]

Jamming is NOT dead. However, "paragraphing" is not only dead, it is "cold and dead".

Jamming goes way beyond I, IV, V. It involves all chord progressions. If a bass player can't deal with the style that a drummer is playing and the notes/chords a guitar/keys player is playing, then the bass player isn't really a bass player.

Regarding that scenario, the "bass" player is nothing more than another person on stage.

Thoughts???

 

[Five Six Seven]

I have another (humorous) thread going about jam bands. On a more serious note, I've been running jams for years, and probably always will. I'm saddened that so many people have lost the spirit of true jamming- Improvisation, and spontaneity.
Every week I end up with a bunch of GREAT players who just want to play songs. Maybe add a second (third...fourth) guitar solo, but the jamming aspect is all but gone.
I try to push my guests boundries, and a FEW of them get it. Go to double time feel, or a modulation, or switch up a groove- reggae Zeppelin, or metal Peaches and Herb.
I try to keep it interesting, and push peoples boundries.
I often just hit a brick wall. If it ain't on the record, they don't want to try it.
Too many automatons, not enough free spirits.
Another Pride and Joy.......in the same key as the record.....
Rant over.

I'm with you on this. I've been playing for a very long time and haven't amounted to much, which is fine, but frankly I just don't enjoy note-for-note playing like I did when I was younger. These days, ALL of my playing is improv (unless I'm working on a composition that I want to record, in which case it's all about a consistent, repeatable performance). And not coincidentally, all I play lately is jazz. Sometimes I'll fire up BFD or EZDrummer and try to develop grooves, fills, solos, etc., over a static tonal center or an easy chord progression. But mostly, it's playing over changes and letting the chips fall where they may. I'm not sure why, but even in that context, I often find myself groaning inwardly when I resort to some lick that's totally second-nature at this point. For instance, I sometimes jam (recreationally) with this friend of mine who plays gypsy jazz guitar. If I haven't shed the tunes in a while, I will invariably resort to the same corny mixolydian riffs (lots of seventh chord cycles in those tunes), maybe with some passing tones thrown in, when it's my turn to solo. At the next level, if I'm playing over a very familiar tune (say, Solar or Four) where the changes aren't too difficult, I can usually piece together a cohesive solo -- but again, it depends on how rusty I am at the moment in terms of resorting to the same old tricks and licks or really being "unconscious" in my soloing (or my comping, for that matter). ALL I AM SAYING IS, even as someone who is dedicated to improv, you find many moments in that context where you say to yourself, "Oh, yeah, I just played that Dorian riff again over a ii chord in C: G-Gb-F-A-E-D. I play that sh*t all the time! If I had a dollar for every time I played that!!! There's actually a name for that riff, like it comes from the melody of some standard, and I'm using it as a crutch in my solo!!!" In other words, it's super difficult even within that context of spontaneous improv to feel like you're being truly spontaneous, as opposed to hastily arranging the common "words" in your vocabulary into a sentence.

 

[Five Six Seven]

I'm with you on this. I've been playing for a very long time and haven't amounted to much, which is fine, but frankly I just don't enjoy note-for-note playing like I did when I was younger. These days, ALL of my playing is improv (unless I'm working on a composition that I want to record, in which case it's all about a consistent, repeatable performance). And not coincidentally, all I play lately is jazz. Sometimes I'll fire up BFD or EZDrummer and try to develop grooves, fills, solos, etc., over a static tonal center or an easy chord progression. But mostly, it's playing over changes and letting the chips fall where they may. I'm not sure why, but even in that context, I often find myself groaning inwardly when I resort to some lick that's totally second-nature at this point. For instance, I sometimes jam (recreationally) with this friend of mine who plays gypsy jazz guitar. If I haven't shed the tunes in a while, I will invariably resort to the same corny mixolydian riffs (lots of seventh chord cycles in those tunes), maybe with some passing tones thrown in, when it's my turn to solo. At the next level, if I'm playing over a very familiar tune (say, Solar or Four) where the changes aren't too difficult, I can usually piece together a cohesive solo -- but again, it depends on how rusty I am at the moment in terms of resorting to the same old tricks and licks or really being "unconscious" in my soloing (or my comping, for that matter). ALL I AM SAYING IS, even as someone who is dedicated to improv, you find many moments in that context where you say to yourself, "Oh, yeah, I just played that Dorian riff again over a ii chord in C: G-Gb-F-A-E-D. I play that sh*t all the time! If I had a dollar for every time I played that!!! There's actually a name for that riff, like it comes from the melody of some standard, and I'm using as a crutch in my solo!!!" In other words, it's super difficult even within that context of spontaneous improv to feel like you're being truly spontaneous, as opposed to hastily arranging the common "words" in your vocabulary into a sentence.

I should have provided an example. Say you're playing with some people who call the next tune and it's "Avalon." If you haven't played the tune in a while, you're going to run through some muscle-memory mixo licks over C7 for the first four bars, then you're going to repeat the same ideas over F7 for another four bars. Then you'll probably repeat that for the next eight-bar cycle over the same two chords. Even worse, when you get to the D7, you'll play it totally straight rather than as an altered dominant: D7 mixo instead of Eb mel min, which is totally where you want to be when heading toward the beautiful Gm7 that makes that tune so great. Then, at the next part that makes that tune so great, you'll play a stock Dorian riff over the Bb-7 rather than playing a Bb melodic minor, which obviously is what the tune wants given that the major 7 in that scale is also the major third in the chord you're heading for (Fmaj7). That's what's so sh*tty about dedicating yourself to improv. If you haven't totally assimilated the intellectual theoretical component so that it's under your fingers and comes out unconsciously, yer screwed. My dad is a professional jazz pianist. On the occasions we jam, I stumble and fumble over his incredibly complex charts (two chord changes per bar, at least!), and if I ask him, "What was that? What did you play over that change?" he invariably sez: "I dunno, it's just this."

 

[JIO]

Jamming is NOT dead. However, "paragraphing" is not only dead, it is "cold and dead".

Jamming goes way beyond I, IV, V. It involves all chord progressions. If a bass player can't deal with the style that a drummer is playing and the notes/chords a guitar/keys player is playing, then the bass player isn't really a bass player.

Regarding that scenario, the "bass" player is nothing more than another person on stage.

Thoughts???

"Paraphrasing" as in, verse/chorus/verse/chorus etc? That's cold and dead? ... o - k

This comment renders all that follow suspect so I'll leave it at that.

 

[12BitSlab]

"Paraphrasing" as in, verse/chorus/verse/chorus etc? That's cold and dead? ... o - k

This comment renders all that follow suspect so I'll leave it at that.

I did mean "paragraphing" all the while understanding that it is not a valid word in the English language. One of my pet peeves is adding "ing" to the end of a noun to somehow convert it into a verb. It has become so common that one sees such constructs from writers who should know better (e.g., journalists).

Earlier in the thread there are some truly outstanding posts re: the content of the posts. With that said, some of them were difficult to read since they were constructed with many sentences strung together as a single paragraph.

With that out of the way......

I do believe that "jamming" is alive and well but only in some circles. I have been playing jazz for almost 50 years and have played many times where a "head arrangement" turned into a long jam. When it "clicks", it is great fun. It tends to "click" when playing with others who have a background in jazz or improvisational rock.

Sorry that my earlier post was confusing.

 

[Paulabass]

^^I can verbify anything. I'm lunching with my girlfriend today. We'll probably both just salad.

 

[JIO]

I did mean "paragraphing" all the while understanding that it is not a valid word in the English language. One of my pet peeves is adding "ing" to the end of a noun to somehow convert it into a verb. It has become so common that one sees such constructs from writers who should know better (e.g., journalists).

Earlier in the thread there are some truly outstanding posts re: the content of the posts. With that said, some of them were difficult to read since they were constructed with many sentences strung together as a single paragraph.

With that out of the way......

I do believe that "jamming" is alive and well but only in some circles. I have been playing jazz for almost 50 years and have played many times where a "head arrangement" turned into a long jam. When it "clicks", it is great fun. It tends to "click" when playing with others who have a background in jazz or improvisational rock.

Sorry that my earlier post was confusing.

Ah ha... that does present a very different interpretation. As we were speaking in musical terms (especially after Five Six Seven's posts), I thought that was the context of its usage. An example of how printed communication can be misinterpreted and why emoji's have become so prevalent. Call me old fashioned but the text world of crippled words and stenotype deciphering (while it has its pros) is unfortunately leading to a general inability to communicate properly through print. I don't have a literary degree (not one to point out improper sentence structure), but I do very much enjoy reading and writing and clarity in printed communications. It's the world we live in and it is what it is.

Otherwise, words are in constant evolution - just like music and that's what keeps both vital.

Having that clarified - I agree!

^^I can verbify anything. I'm lunching with my girlfriend today. We'll probably both just salad.

 

[Bass is base]

"Jamming" is to improvise - and that can range from over a structure to where the song structure itself is improvised.

Musician has very wide meaning and whether one can improvise or not is not necessarily part of that.

However unless one simply recreates recordings - much of arranging - orchestrating etc is refined improvisation. Idea had to come from somewhere.

Jamming in its true meaning though is helpful in being able to listen and to be able to adjust in real time. Especially important for accompanists - drummers and bassists.

The thread was a complaint that jam sessions are really open mike and with that I concur.

Jam sessions should be exploratory and are great way to hone ones listening skills and to have conversations in sound - break down walls and meet musicians.

Open mike is performance and that is disappointing when it is billed as a jam.

I have enjoyed jamming and open mike at Grossman's Tavern, which is billed as a Blues Jam, for over thirty years. Ironically, by forty years of precedent, it is more a Blues open mike. Musicians start out playing classics and may later develop an ability to jam. The two abilities are connected. Creative jammers seldom have contempt for playing classics.

Eric Clapton is an exceptionally creative musician. Layla is one of the most melodically creative songs. Decades later he covered Elmore James' 'It Hurts Me Too' on 'From the Cradle'. An album title that suggests the point I am trying to make. I love getting up with Rob Quail at Grossman's. He can play Otis Rush and Muddy Waters songs articulately. I am also comfortable jamming with him because he plays with a strong sense of rhythm, melody and dynamics. Skills he developed by playing covers.

I have yet to meet a creative jammer who hasn't excelled at playing classics. Before any of us got good we all did a mountain of woodshedding learning our favourite songs. I have outgrown some music. I stopped enjoying the Beatles after being a teeny bopper. I still love playing Earl Hooker, the three Kings, Muddy Waters, Hendrix, Zeppelin and Ten Years After. I also enjoy jamming. I have yet to have enjoyed jamming with a musician who was incapable of playing the classics well.

 

[5thsand4ths]

It seems every jam I go to has the same guys who have no meter, and backing them is a nightmare.

 

[JIO]

It seems every jam I go to has the same guys who have no meter, and backing them is a nightmare.

That is a problem - do they realize their shortcoming? I guess the bigger question is can this be taught or do some people just not have a good sense of meter? Speaking as an artist, there are overlaps with aspects of making art. Personally I have never agreed with the feel-good assertion that "everyone's a (potential) artist" and perhaps "everyone's a (potential) musician" follows the same assertion.

 

[Bass is base]

That is a problem - do they realize their shortcoming? I guess the bigger question is can this be taught or do some people just not have a good sense of meter? Speaking as an artist, there are overlaps with aspects of making art. Personally I have never agreed with the feel-good assertion that "everyone's a (potential) artist" and perhaps "everyone's a (potential) musician" follows the same assertion.

Yes. I will play with any new player once. I will then evaluate wether they have developed sufficient skill to have earned the privilege to play with competent musicians.

I don't tell them to give up. I tell them they have to put more time into developing their skills. If they are committed they will not be offended. They will continue working at developing their skills. A person's potential is of no value till it is realized through commitment and effort. The sooner a potential musician learns that, the sooner they can become competent musicians.

 

[3Liter]

Yes. I will play with any new player once. I will then evaluate wether they have developed sufficient skill to have earned the privilege to play with competent musicians.

I don't tell them to give up. I tell them they have to put more time into developing their skills. If they are committed they will not be offended. They will continue working at developing their skills. A person's potential is of no value till it is realized through commitment and effort. The sooner a potential musician learns that, the sooner they can become competent musicians.

Wow, that is so arrogant. You bestowing the honor of playing with you once is very kind. How many make it to the next level?

Your second paragraph puts you in a slightly better light, but do you give actual recommendations? Work on your timing, don't be so busy, etc? Otherwise, how do they get a second session with you?

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

"Jamming" is to improvise - and that can range from over a structure to where the song structure itself is improvised.

Musician has very wide meaning and whether one can improvise or not is not necessarily part of that.

However unless one simply recreates recordings - much of arranging - orchestrating etc is refined improvisation. Idea had to come from somewhere.

Jamming in its true meaning though is helpful in being able to listen and to be able to adjust in real time. Especially important for accompanists - drummers and bassists.

The thread was a complaint that jam sessions are really open mike and with that I concur.

Jam sessions should be exploratory and are great way to hone ones listening skills and to have conversations in sound - break down walls and meet musicians.

Open mike is performance and that is disappointing when it is billed as a jam.

This is one of my favorite examples of a recorded jam where the accompanying musicians listen to what the soloist is doing and interact accordingly. It starts at about 5:59:

 

[leftyjohn]

The last time I did posting stuff was about 20 years ago....on news groups. So if this isn't right....

My comment about playing music vs. playing songs seems to have offended some people.
So let me clarify, or at least try to. To me a song is a framework within which I get to play music.
If I have to play the same notes the same way every time then I don't really feel like I am playing music.
I used to play this way. Now I play my line a little different every time. What I am doing is looking for a better line.

 

[JIO]

Wow, that is so arrogant. You bestowing the honor of playing with you once is very kind. How many make it to the next level?

Your second paragraph puts you in a slightly better light, but do you give actual recommendations? Work on your timing, don't be so busy, etc? Otherwise, how do they get a second session with you?

Base is base will clarify his sentiments I'm sure but me thinks you're reading a bit too much into what he posted. Let's start by assuming he would be willing to offer insights if asked. His point seemed to be that a player needs to do the preliminary woodshedding on their own (as we all have) to comprehend what goes on in collective improvisational music enough to participate successfully. A starting point could be as listener w/o playing and afterwards ask specific questions. I'm more inclined to believe this is closer to what he implied although "privilege" is a loaded word that can be misconstrued depending on how one hears it.

 

[Bass is base]

Wow, that is so arrogant. You bestowing the honor of playing with you once is very kind. How many make it to the next level?

Your second paragraph puts you in a slightly better light, but do you give actual recommendations? Work on your timing, don't be so busy, etc? Otherwise, how do they get a second session with you?

Yes I do give recommendations. The last person I told I didn't want to play with was a drummer who was far too loud. I had asked him to turn down the volume numerous times but he didn't. He was so loud I couldn't hear the singer. I told him all the musicians need to be able to listen to the singer. The singer sets the dynamics and cues the changes. I also told him if he did learn to play quietly enough, I would play with him again.

When I first met Terry Wilkins, arguably Toronto's top bass player, he gave me a critical review of my playing. I was wanking. He told me about note value and the power of letting a note sustain. He told me I needed to play more rhythmically. I had been confusing the ability of ripping off notes with musicality. A common beginner's mistake. I don't, and didn't consider Terry arrogant. I felt complimented such a great player considered me worth criticism. Terry has been a mentor to many bass players.

I didn't get outraged. I worked at becoming a better player. Everyone who gets more than "first try" stage time at the Grossman's jam has developed sufficient skills. How is that arrogant? Wouldn't it be arrogant for anyone to think they deserve the privilege of stage time without having developed sufficient skills?

 

[3Liter]

@Bass is base maybe it was just in the way you wrote it. I guess if you're hosting a jam and someone is beating the hell out of the kit or doesn't otherwise listen, somehow they don't get asked up into the next jam. I have seen that happen. I've seen folks walk off stage or otherwise wont play with certain folks either.


But to you last point: "Wouldn't it be arrogant for anyone to think they deserve the privilege of stage time without having developed sufficient skills?" The whole thread is predicated on people not jamming. So, then, with that point...how does one demonstrate sufficient skills worthy of getting on stage the first time? The whole "play with folks better than you" concept?

I played with some folks at a blues jam last week. It was tough since the bass player couldn't follow me and the drummer was erratic. I'm nothing special, so I grinned and beared it and showed them a couple of new tunes and worked on comping when the other guy was singing. But the jam organizer didn't feel they didn't have sufficient skills worthy of getting on stage.

 

[JIO]

Yes I do give recommendations. The last person I told I didn't want to play with was a drummer who was far too loud. I had asked him to turn down the volume numerous times but he didn't. He was so loud I couldn't hear the singer. I told him all the musicians need to be able to listen to the singer. The singer sets the dynamics and cues the changes. I also told him if he did learn to play quietly enough, I would play with him again.

When I first met Terry Wilkins, arguably Toronto's top bass player, he gave me a critical review of my playing. I was wanking. He told me about note value and the power of letting a note sustain. He told me I needed to play more rhythmically. I had been confusing the ability of ripping off notes with musicality. A common beginner's mistake. I don't, and didn't consider Terry arrogant. I felt complimented such a great player considered me worth criticism. Terry has been a mentor to many bass players.

I didn't get outraged. I worked at becoming a better player. Everyone who gets more than "first try" stage time at the Grossman's jam has developed sufficient skills. How is that arrogant? Wouldn't it be arrogant for anyone to think they deserve the privilege of stage time without having developed sufficient skills?

Volume and dynamics. Even many long term musicians still abuse these two foundational ensemble ingredients. (both in structured and improvisational music) In my band the singer being heard and heard clearly so an audience member can follow the lyrics is the #1 goal. Once that is determined/set everyone else adjusts their volume according. Even with instrumental music, I'd much rather have an audience ask the band to turn up than have them move toward the back or leave because we are too loud. I heard a cool metal band play at our local music-centric tavern who were dense, dynamic and nuanced w/o being deafeningly loud. In fact, they were nuanced because they weren't too loud. If a musician can't play dynamically at lower volumes - they definitely need to work on that and that means on their own, not in an ensemble.