The decibel delima. Long rant, short gig.

[rmkesler]

Curious, what's your instrumentation, and what kinds of amps does the guitar player have? where is the stage relative to the bartenders?

Lots of guitar players get 100w stacks and try to overdrive them to get "their" sound, its usually accomplished only at ear splitting volumes.

Some bars have the stage pointing at the bar, across the short dimension of the room, making it very hard to hear drink orders.

Is your drummer a basher? Can he hit light to play quiet, or is he the one driving up stage volume instead of the guitar? They're the 2 most likely culprits.

Do you guys use earplugs? Do your ears ring when you get home after a gig/rehearsal? You may be a lot louder than you think. Compared to your stage volume, it usually sounds much quieter in the audience. That isn't the same thing as being "quiet" though.

He may well have pulled the 70dB figure out of his butt, he'll let you know when its quiet enough.

Randy

3 guitars. Two play through combos and one is a half stack. Drums. 1 bass guitar (SVT/810). Lead singer.

The stage is outside so the owner was listening to us through a window where customers place orders without going inside. The stage faces the window. The building/window is on the other side of the court yard.

The drummer is not a basher. Actually one of the tamer drummers I've worked with. He said that those two songs were the quietest he has ever played on stage.

I wear earplugs as needed. I was not wearing them last night.

 

[steveksux]

You need to get the word out to other musicians in the area so no one else falls into the same pitfall with this *ahem* gentleman. Any local musicians you know, tell them. Any local music store around, post a notice on the board. When this person can't book any talent and his sales drop because of it, he will have to rethink his approach to doing business in the real world. This is unprofessional, discourteous, and downright despicable what he did to your band. If the venue was right around the block, no biggie. But an hour drive is nothing to scoff at in my book. You should have, AT THE VERY LEAST, been reimbursed for your gas.

Like refusing to turn down is "professional" behavior on their part. Like quitting in the middle of the first set is "professional" behavior on their part.

Dispicable? That's freaking hilarious...

Man, I hope you're being sarcastic. How many actual paid gigs have you done, anyway?

Randy

 

[BassmanAd]

I'm wondering who set the level at 70db? It's virtually unworkable with live drums. Is it the club owner or the police?

 

[steveksux]

3 guitars. Two play through combos and one is a half stack. Drums. 1 bass guitar (SVT/810). Lead singer.

The stage is outside so the owner was listening to us through a window where customers place orders without going inside. The stage faces the window. The building/window is on the other side of the court yard.

The drummer is not a basher. Actually one of the tamer drummers I've worked with. He said that those two songs were the quietest he has ever played on stage.

I wear earplugs as needed. I was not wearing them last night.

Curious what the wattage on the guitar amps is, that's usually a big volume issue. They can't get overdriven without getting loud as hell. Ditto for combos on the floor, they don't sound loud because most of the sound goes through their legs, but its much louder out front. Getting their amps up, or tilting them back to approximate ear level is crucial to getting volume under control. Especially hard to keep the 3 of them from engaging in volume wars. If they all play something different, it helps, if they're playing power chords, they're next to each other, its a recipe for disaster.

Also what's going through the PA? If you have instruments mic'd, not hard to have a really quiet stage volume and be blasting the crowd, you may well not hear that from behind the speakers.

I run a pair of EA 2x10's driven with 1500 watts, probably approaches the volume capacity of an 8x10. Especially for the "quiet" gigs. The good news with your 810 is its at ear level, like my setup, so you can still hear yourself at low volumes. You probably can play quieter with the 810 than a 4x10 because of that. I know I can, so you may well not have been part of the problem.

Between 3 guitar players, trying to keep all their volumes under control, and extremely quiet is tough. Could have just been 1 guy out of control on 1 solo, or a highly distorted sound that makes it sound louder than it is, that was the catalyst for setting the owner off.

Patio of pavers, or concrete, not much damping material to deaden the sound doesn't help.

Randy

 

[rmkesler]

I'm wondering who set the level at 70db? It's virtually unworkable with live drums. Is it the club owner or the police?

There is a city wide noise ordinance. However, the 70db limit information was relayed to us by the owner so that may or may not be accurate.

 

[BassScum]

So what? Boss tells you to turn down, you turn down. Its not like they were expected to play a bunch of songs they don't know. Your point would have some significance if they were a metal band booked in a disco club. All you have to do is turn down.... anybody can do it. You really think the band gets to decide how loud is loud? Newsflash, its the guy that owns the club and signs your paycheck. If he wants it unreasonably quiet, that's his choice. He has had bands before you, and will have them after you. Somehow, they manage....

They didn't have to only play 2 songs. They chose to quit rather than turn down. If I had driven a long way to play, its pretty simple to turn the hell down and play rather than waste the trip. Next time put a "We don't play under 90 dB" in the contract... rofl

Randy

I disagree. 70dB is ridiculous with a drummer. They tried 2 songs at a lower volume and the owner still told them to turn the F down. My band would have packed up as well. I been through the same situation before. The owner should have informed them of the 70dB rule when he hired them and before they showed up. I understand playing at a reasonable volume but below that is not enjoyable nor worth the effort IMO. The owner shouldn't hire a full band with drums if expects to keep it below 70dB, maybe an accoustic act would suffice.

 

[SBassman]

I think the way the owner delivered his *message* was atrocious.
I wouldn't play in a dump like that. Life is too short.

 

[markkoelsch]

70 db is a joke. Having formerly owned a decibel meter, I can tell you that drums, especially crash cymbals and snares, can easily hit 110 db without hitting them excessively.

This sounds like there is fault on both sides.

First, the bar owner. If you have a 70 db limit that should have been clearly spelled out before as it is an essentially unachievable limit with live drums, and the other gear brought for the gig. If this is legit, as another poster stated, he should limit the bands to small acoustic only groups. Also, he should think about not having bands. Maybe he should have an accordion player instead.

Secondly, the band. First thing is that I like to get paid. I would have called a quick break to discuss the situation. I think the first recommendation would have been for the drummer to switch to brushes, and for everyone to turn down. If that did not work, then I would of had the drummer sit this one out (still paid of course...not his fault). If that is not adequate, then start dropping other instruments out.

Overall, it is a bad situation, and one that I am glad I have not encountered.

 

[rmkesler]

Curious what the wattage on the guitar amps is, that's usually a big volume issue. They can't get overdriven without getting loud as hell. Ditto for combos on the floor, they don't sound loud because most of the sound goes through their legs, but its much louder out front. Getting their amps up, or tilting them back to approximate ear level is crucial to getting volume under control. Especially hard to keep the 3 of them from engaging in volume wars. If they all play something different, it helps, if they're playing power chords, they're next to each other, its a recipe for disaster.

Also what's going through the PA? If you have instruments mic'd, not hard to have a really quiet stage volume and be blasting the crowd, you may well not hear that from behind the speakers.

I run a pair of EA 2x10's driven with 1500 watts, probably approaches the volume capacity of an 8x10. Especially for the "quiet" gigs. The good news with your 810 is its at ear level, like my setup, so you can still hear yourself at low volumes. You probably can play quieter with the 810 than a 4x10 because of that. I know I can, so you may well not have been part of the problem.

Between 3 guitar players, trying to keep all their volumes under control, and extremely quiet is tough. Could have just been 1 guy out of control on 1 solo, or a highly distorted sound that makes it sound louder than it is, that was the catalyst for setting the owner off.

Patio of pavers, or concrete, not much damping material to deaden the sound doesn't help.

Randy

I can't say what the amperage on the guitar amps would be. I'm guessing anywhere between 50 to 100 watts. The were elevated to waist level.

None of the instruments were going throught the PA. Only vocals.

 

[steveksux]

I disagree. 70dB is ridiculous with a drummer. They tried 2 songs at a lower volume and the owner still told them to turn the F down.

So they were still too loud. 70dB is tough. But other bands play there and seem to survive. So its not ridiculous or impossible.

My band would have packed up as well. I been through the same situation before. The owner should have informed them of the 70dB rule when he hired them and before they showed up. I understand playing at a reasonable volume but below that is not enjoyable nor worth the effort IMO. The owner shouldn't hire a full band with drums if expects to keep it below 70dB, maybe an accoustic act would suffice.

Only an issue if this is the first non-acoustic act he's hired. If he's been having bands meet the requirements, he's got no reason to think its a problem. Just because YOU guys aren't used to it doesn't make it unreasonable. We weren't there, we don't know how loud they were after they turned down.

But most bands play a lot louder than they think they do. If I'm playing the odds, that's the most likely scenario.

Randy

 

[rmkesler]

A "70db" limit is somewhat meaningless without knowing what weighting is to be used. But in any case, as others have said already it's much too low for an venue to offer live music, or anything other than background music. Seeing that normal conversation is around 70dbA, even an acoustic singer/guitarist without amplification with likely hit peaks much higher than that.

Noise in public is a tricky thing because most ordinances can be fairly vague, or strict, or both. This occurs because when someone who doesn't want to hear the noise does hear it they consider it a nuisance, and law enforcement acts to eliminate it.

If I may offer some advice that would've avoided the situation you encountered. Put together an event contract that you can use with each venue you gig at. Stipulate all of the details of that show (time(s), compensation, equipment/technical considerations, etc.). You can also determine in advance that there are to be no noise ordinances associated with this venue, and stipulate that a show cancellation due to these limitations is the responsibility of the venue. At the very least this will give you leverage to get the venue to pay you.

It wasn't your fault the venue booked a live band when they know full well about their noise limitations, your band should not have lost a payday because of that. It was in part because a lack of advance work on your part that this occurred, though.

A one time consult with a knowledgeable lawyer in your state will net you a good contract that you can use for years to come, it's probably worth the investment.

Excellent advise. Thank you.

 

[Febs]

Only an issue if this is the first non-acoustic act he's hired. If he's been having bands meet the requirements, he's got no reason to think its a problem.

The OP said:

We’ve played there before so we were not expecting anything out of the ordinary.

 

[BassScum]

So they were still too loud. 70dB is tough. But other bands play there and seem to survive. So its not ridiculous or impossible.

Only an issue if this is the first non-acoustic act he's hired. If he's been having bands meet the requirements, he's got no reason to think its a problem. Just because YOU guys aren't used to it doesn't make it unreasonable. We weren't there, we don't know how loud they were after they turned down.

But most bands play a lot louder than they think they do. If I'm playing the odds, that's the most likely scenario.

Randy

But what we do know is 70dB was the limit. Which is to low with a full band w/ drummer. Again the 70dB limit should have been communicated by the owner at the time of hire.

 

[steveksux]

I can't say what the amperage on the guitar amps would be. I'm guessing anywhere between 50 to 100 watts. The were elevated to waist level.

None of the instruments were going throught the PA. Only vocals.

You're doing all that right then, you're ahead of the curve compared to many bands...

If the guitar players are relying on pedals to get their "tone" the 100W might not even be an issue, if any one of them get their "tone" from the amp, that's probably it. Even the 50W amps could require a decent amount of volume to get a distorted tone. What sounds quiet to you off to the side could be a lot louder out front in front of that particular guitar player. And even a normally decent amount of volume is too much in a club looking for quiet.

You mentioned the drummer isn't a basher, so he could be off the hook too.

Randy

 

[Nashrakh]

I would have pantomime'd my way through it lol.

Same deal as with loud bands drowning out bassists - until they decide to turn their amps off completely and get compliments like 'you never sounded better before', haha.

 

[steveksux]

But what we do know is 70dB was the limit. Which is to low with a full band w/ drummer. Again the 70dB limit should have been communicated by the owner at the time of hire.

Why is 70dB too low? Incorrect assumption. Drummers can play with a light touch, knobs can be rotated counterclockwise, although it takes considerably more effort to turn them in that direction rather than clockwise...

How are other bands managing to play that club? Obviously it can be done.

You simply don't LIKE playing that low. That's a far different consideration. That's the music biz. You play songs you don't necessarily like to do, you play at clubs you don't necessarily like to play, you play at volumes you don't necessarily like. Equipment breaks, and you play with what's left, equipment you'd rather not play though.

That's what being a professional is all about. At least in the bar circuit. You don't get to demand certain colors of M&Ms at this stage of your career.

Randy

 

[steveksux]

The OP said:

So what?

The first time they played there could have been before he got busted for noise problems. Or they could have been quieter. Could have been a different manager that night.

Not sure what point you're trying to make? What do you think playing there before indicates?

Randy

 

[nutdog]

Professionalism works both ways. If an owner with a 70db limit knowingly books a band with 3 guitars, drums and bass, he's an idiot. “Either turn it down or turn it the f@ck off” is not professional. It is a rude way of providing options, one of which the OP's band selected.

A club owner is not my boss. We have a mutual exchange agreement: entertainment for compensation. No contract can ever contemplate every possible circumstance. However, if there is no contract you cannot guarantee you will be paid whether you play or not. If there is a contract, and the noise limit isn't mentioned, the owner's ultimatum allows you to quit but still be payed, IMO. Personally, if I had gone to the trouble of lugging out an 810 I would have found a way to play continue playing, just cause I enjoy making music, soft or loud.

I bet his canned music is over 70db. In our area we have noise ordinances. We have had police show up. They ask us to turn down. No big deal. Usually they say something like "I personally don't mind, I think it sounds good, but..." If the cops are going around with db meters and writing tickets something is wrong.

And another thing: It ain't a party if the cops don't show up.

 

[gareth dunster]

10dB = rustle of leaves
20dB = whisper
40dB = soft stereo music in a residence
70dB = Crackling of plastic food wrappers 2 ft away; B-757 aircraft cabin during flight.
80dB = Cafeteria with sound-reflecting surface (the threshold of hearing loss (with long term exposure).

So you've go play at the same level as someone eating a bag of crisps.

 

[rmkesler]

Professionalism works both ways. If an owner with a 70db limit knowingly books a band with 3 guitars, drums and bass, he's an idiot. “Either turn it down or turn it the f@ck off” is not professional. It is a rude way of providing options, one of which the OP's band selected.

A club owner is not my boss. We have a mutual exchange agreement: entertainment for compensation. No contract can ever contemplate every possible circumstance. However, if there is no contract you cannot guarantee you will be paid whether you play or not. If there is a contract, and the noise limit isn't mentioned, the owner's ultimatum allows you to quit but still be payed, IMO. Personally, if I had gone to the trouble of lugging out an 810 I would have found a way to play continue playing, just cause I enjoy making music, soft or loud.

I bet his canned music is over 70db. In our area we have noise ordinances. We have had police show up. They ask us to turn down. No big deal. Usually they say something like "I personally don't mind, I think it sounds good, but..." If the cops are going around with db meters and writing tickets something is wrong.

And another thing: It ain't a party if the cops don't show up.

That's what I don't get about this deal. I've played plenty of gigs where the police showed up and told the band to turn down. Considering my age at the time and the music we were playing I'm sure we deserved it. This deal with the 70db limit and receiving an instant fine is bizzare to me. I can only wonder what happened in the month since we last played there to cause this.