Double Bass The emperors new clothes

[tez123]

I wonder wether the wood of the bow has as much to do about Tone as the hair and the choice of rosin? as it is very much the Rosin that seems to have the greatest effect on the tone of my bows .I own three bows from cheap chinese to moderatly priced European.
Whilst the wood is important to keep an even tension on the hair I cant see how it would effect the tone that much.I can imagine a bad rehair would kill a bow as some might have experenced, I just cant seem to get my head around the cost of some bows.
When you look at the experiments with cheaper modern violins and a strat in the hands of a proffessonal, most cannot tell the difference.
I am sure the same can be said of a cheap bow with the right rosin in the hands of an artist . has there been any experiments like this? Cirtainly the weight and balance will have an effect for each individual, and the choice he makes , but i wonder whether price will pursuade us that more expensive is better!

 

[SVT4001]

Interesting thoughts.

"The Emperor's New Clothes" was a story by Hans Christian Andersen about someone who is maliciously duped, and then won't admit it until he is called out by a child.

Have you ever read "Flatland" by Edwin Abbott Abbott? It is a story that satires social hierarchy of Victorian culture- and it has some interesting facets (if you don't mind the inside joke! )- one of which involves the concept that some things may be beyond the scope of one's understanding.

I suspect that you may hold a very different opinion of bows in, say- ten years from now- when you may be better able to appreciate what makes a fine bow different from a common one.

I don't mean to say that just because a bow is expensive that it is "better"- I have experienced many bows that I thought were worth much more than the price point/asking price they were offered in- and many that were priced high that I thought little of...so "no" price doesn't always relfect the true quality of a bow, or instrument for that matter...

But maybe, just maybe- there might be something to some of those expensive bows that you are missing...

Just a little food for thought...

Respectfully,

Joe

 

[tez123]

whilst I am a beginer when it comes to bowing, I would only have practiced the bow for at most 200 hrs ,and still make many errors, I have at least got past the "bouncing bow syndrome" I squeak less and can produce a resonable tone 3 times out of 4, I know I have many many hours of practice ahead of me to become adequate for my music , which will hopefully be one step above medeocrity. I no doupt think a top quality bow would be "Pearls before the Swine" in my hands. forgive any spelling errors as I am illitirit Illiterate ( cant spell)

 

[notabene]

My girl friend and I have 4 German bows between us (one carbon fiber, 3 wood). In a "blindfold" test, I could correctly identify all of them. And... the best sounding one is the hardest one to play with. Go figure. 2 of the bows had been rehaired in the same shop at the same time.

 

[SVT4001]

Don't worry- you can learn to spell- or just use "spell check"!

But- you already possess a good nature and inquisitive spirit! Don't be afraid to ask questions- it's how you learn.

Nameste,

Joe

 

[MikeCanada]

The wood used for the bow can make a huge difference, and there are some blanket statements that can be made about different types of wood. However, I hesitate to make them, because each piece of wood is unique. Although you self identify as someone who is a beginner with the bow, and at this stage in the game subtle differences are not that easy to pick out from bow to bow, as you progress, the difference between wood species will likely become much more clear, and the difference between individual bows of the same wood, by the same maker, copies of the same model etc. will also be distinguishable.

Pernambuco: Is the most well known bow wood. It has great sound, strength, flexibility, holds a curve really well, and can be made into fantastic bows. It is also endangered, and cannot be transported across international borders without a lot of paperwork (the wood, before made into bows, finished bows are fine)

Brazil wood: A confusing name, because Pernambuco can also be called Pau-Brazil or Brazil wood as well. There are a LOT of different species of Brazil wood and Pernambuco, and they can be quite different, or quite similar. A lot of Brazil wood bows are less expensive than Pernambuco, and are made with an affordable market in mind, but it is often very similar to Pernambuco in characteristics.

Snakewood: The wood is often quite dark in colour, and looks like it has snake scales. The bows often have a quick attack to them, and a focused sound, without a lot of high overtones. Some people love this, some people don’t; it works really well with some basses, and doesn’t with others.

Amourette: is also Snakewood, however it doesn’t have the scale-like appearance. Plays very similar to Snakewood.

Ironwood: A dark wood that is a little less dense than Snakewood/Amourette. It can have more high overtones, and a bit brighter sound, and is really focused.

Wamara: Lighter in colour and density than Ironwood. It plays pretty similar to Ironwood, I don’t have a lot of personal experience with it to comment.

Bloodwood: Before nitric and French polish, (two finishing methods applied to bows when they are being made) Bloodwood is very RED in colour, but looks pretty similar to Pernambuco when finished. It plays quite similar to Pernambuco, is very lively, and a great wood.

There are a TON of other species that have been used historically, and that modern makers are using now as well. Purpleheart, Ipe, Hakia, Bulletwood, Beefwood, Massaranduba, etc. and there are a lot of different names used for all of these woods as well, considering they are all rainforest hardwoods, and the languages used, English translations and names used by bow makers can vary greatly.

I know this is likely overkill for a post like this, but, when you get there, if you are looking for a new bow, you might want to consider a different wood. It can make a big difference, and the only way you will really discover that difference is to try them for yourself.

 

[SVT4001]

Great post Mike! Thanks for taking the time to address the qualities of the different woods- I only have experience with Pernambuco and Brazilwood- good read!

Joe

 

[MikeCanada]

I have had the opportunity to play some really great bows by some really great makers. Having the chances to talk to makers as well, you learn some things. A lot of players have either read something like my post above, or heard stories from colleagues, teachers, woodwind players, the guy who sells mangos at the fruit market, or who knows who about different woods, and usually they aren’t good things.

The facts are that a lot of the old master makers used them historically, and with great success. Some of the bows from old masters are made out of wood with weird grain patterns, not the nicest figuring, some have knots, and some are just not pretty pieces of wood. Pernambuco was used as fence posts in Brazil, and in dyes for textiles when the cutting was good, and has been over harvested, much like many of the other natural resources in this world.

A lot of modern makers are trying to increase awareness of different woods used, and find them to be great woods. Max Kasper, a Canadian maker from the east coast does not use Pernambuco at all, because he prefers the qualities in different species of wood. Joel Quarrington has been playing Kasper bows for years, mostly Snakewood and Ironwood, and they are fantastic.

Too many players, teachers, and guys selling mangos have the idea that these are “alternative woods” that are used as a last resort when the maker cannot get Pernambuco. Because of this attitude from players, a lot of makers chose not to make bows from different woods; it is a whole lot easier to sell something to someone if you make what they want. As a player, and someone who has made a bow, I think everyone who is looking for a bow should try as many different options, from different makers, of different woods, and see what they like. In the end, as with a bass, a bow comes down to individual preference anyway.

 

[petesenkowski]

Martin Brunkalla has made bows from osage orange, a very common tree used in hedge rows in the midwest. There is a thread about one here on talkbass. This wood is also used to make the other kind of bows, the ones used to shoot arrows. According to Mr. Brunkalla, this wood, although possessing most of the qualities necessary for a good bass bow, rarely has straight grain. He has used a limited supply of dried straight grained osage orange to build several German bows, which have received good reviews.

Thanks,
Pete

 

[gerry grable]

Osage orange? I've often wondered if yew, another archery bow wood, has ever been used for musical bows?

 

[LouisF]

Listen here: the Finale is a great $320 bow... but for the life of me I can't understand why Steve made this video. You can HEAR the difference.

http://www.stringemporium.com/videos.htm

I've come across excellent brazilwood, snakewood, ipe and ironwood bows (also seen some pretty lousy ones, too, especially off ebay). One other aspect will be the weight. These other woods tend to make heavier bows.

Sure, an old pernumbucco bow with dead hair caked with rosin will sound like cr-p. But that doesn't mean that the quality of the wood, its density and suppleness, grain, camber and balance aren't crucial to the success of the stick.

Louis