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Double Bass The Four Finger Approach and Bowing approach

B

bass4art

Oct 2, 2010
126
5
#1
Hey Guys

been busy playing a lot lateley,

If you remember I was mentioned I was trained in the traditional pedagogy of double of the Simandl and Nanny System of Double Bass.

But for about a year I worked with a Electric Bass teacher to work on my jazz playing. Now this what I am finding, there are major draw backs to the traditional bass pedagogy that might work for Classical Bass but not really for doing other style of music, I am also finding for my classical playing the 1-2-4 approach is not working for developing a stronger since of intonation.

I have talk alot with Dr, Mark Martin about some of these problem I am finding with my playing. I will be investing in his method, I have looked at Ray Brown first method book from the 1960's and saw the four finger approach in there. And other Famous Jazz Upright Bassist.

For me, I am addressing my bowing technique, been working with french to address some issue, but I am primarly a German Bow playing, and I did find my german as gotten stronger because.

For me, I have consistantly been working with my rhythm with the bow, I have found that having the bow in my pocket helped me be able to create steady walking bass lines and more in tune bass lines as well.

I have climpsed at the Jazz Bowing technique, found it is nothing more then the classical bow with more emphasize on syncopation epsecially feeling the 2 and 4 bearts instead of the 1 and 3 that is typically felt in the classical bowing.

Now I was wondering is there any method out there for jazz player that is not so academic like the Rufus Reed approach but that deal with a simple approach to double bass technique as a jazz and classical Upright Bass.

I have found alot of the material you all recommend, I did find a electric bass method that is simple that I became friends with auther over the last few weeks with, that I have taken some of the ideas out of. And my jazz playing as gotten better for it.

And yes, I like Dr. Martin approach, but since I am not in college any more, and really do notg want to sound so square in my approach anymore, and really just want to simplify my approacj to my playing without getting over burden with academic high education music education any more.

If I have to I will work with Dr. Martin to develop such an approach with the idea and pedagogy I have ran into over the years. But if there is one already out there, why reinvent the wheel.

And yes, I work with Jamie Aerosold play it along recoding to help me develop my ideas for approaches Jazz Upright Bass playing as well.

so if you can help, please do, with any positive suggestions out there.

I would like just one book and one book alone that I can work out with out loading my shelf up with books that I only use 5% or 10% of the information from.

Kirk
 
#2
Hey, check my post in the jazz bass section

trying to simplify my approach to the double bass, less academic straight forward approach less academic more down to the average joe approach.

I want a method that I can working on bowing, finger perfer four finger since I am finding for myself this approach is more approachable for me because of my small hand side and better intonation and pitch control when playing either classica or jazz upright bass, plus it help switching back and forth from Upright to Eletcric Bass.

Be able to work on my scales, chord, rhythm, regular notation reading as well as chord chords, walking bass. and simple practice routine, without getting over burden with to much information.

if you know any bood that does that please let me know.

Kirk

continuuing to progress my bass playing as a artist and teachers.
 
#3
So many problems with this post. I will just say that if 124 is not working for strong intonation 1234 is only going to be worse.
I don't think any method reccomends 1234 all over the bass, anyway. I would again warn against any extended left hand systems with higher action and unamplified pizzicato playing.
In general extended fingering systems should be used to solve problems and not as a regular method.
If Nanny and Simandl are not working you just need to put more into them not change to something more difficult.
 
#4
Well to be honet with you,

I am really not having any probelm with intonation, I just want to simply my technique,

what I have found the 1-2-4 work for me up tp the traditional 3 or 4 position, then I found when the 4 fingers work better in the higher position and is easier to control the pitch. for me, i practice both ways so I have things cover in any playing circumstances that I might find myself in.

Bow, I am working control it better, taking my metronome slower and starting of with long tones on the open strings. the Bass transciption of the Cello School of Bowing of Otaka Sevcik is help me with that. And I do practice with both bows on them.

I just want to simplify my technique, and really develop my own way playing the upright bass, and get more away from from the traditional approach, I have found sometimes it works sometime it does not. so that is what I really want to do as a Music and approaching the Bass as a Artist, not strickly a Bassist. Do not want to limit myself to any one approach to the great instrument of the Double Bass.

While I respect what has come before me, I want to do things in way that are comfortable for not what some school of thought says should happen on the instruments.

Remember the inovator of our instruments was criticized as well for what they came up with for the instrument by others in their day. So before you jump all over me for it, I want to approach the instrument as a Artist then a Bassist Second.

Kirk
 
#7
Unfortunately, due to the excessive mensure of the double bass, the 'one finger/note' approach is not practical as it would mean having to put a lot of strain on tendons and joints as you stretch. This sounds like a recipe for repetitive strain injury (I know all about that first hand). A full tone in half-position (Simandl) is about four inches apart on most basses which is a very big stretch even for a larger hand. I occasionally employ pivots with certain sequences in classical solos and orchestral repertoire but having suffered through everything from tendonitis to tennis elbow (which is particularly bad at the moment), I have to be careful not to upest anything. The Bille method uses the third finger in place of the second but the span of the hand remains one full tone. I would be very careful with any strain.
 
#9
My DB teacher had me do 4-finger I think at one lesson doing a segment w/ 4-finger approach in that E-G section on the G-string. Then he explained to me how the 3-finger actually worked better. I think the idea of 4-finger is flawed, because when you reach the point when it would be beneficial, you're in thumb position.
 
#10
Electric bass fingerings do not work on upright, end of story. Upright fingerings, excluding thumb position, work fine on electric bass. So if you want to double, either treat them as completely separate instruments, or use upright fingering. You WILL destroy your hands if you ignore this, and hand injuries really, really suck.

So, if you have small hands like me (only just barely span an octave on a piano), the best option is work up something like the Rabbath pivoting technique for the lower positions (which actually gives you more options than EB style fingerings anyway). As for a book, I don't know what is currently out there... Rabbath's own books and DVDs might be suitable, or the Vance method is fairly similar in how the technique comes out. Myself I learned Simandl and figured out the rest from TB and experiment, but that's not either efficient or everyone's cup of tea.
 
#11
I routinely teach a group of people that always seem to have small hands. I call them women and children. Most important is to teach them how to shift properly and how to use the entire fingerboard efficiently. If you have small hands and have to change your hand shape every time you change notes, as you would with 4-finger in the lower positions, your odds of playing in tune are going to be greatly diminished over a fixed (notice I didn't say rigid) hand shape that moves consistently and efficiently over the fingerboard.

I have seen bassists play 4-finger. Every one had huge hands.

My 2 cents, spend it wisely.
 
#14
Chris Symer said:
The replies you got in the orchestral section and Damon's above are good ones. Read them carefully and pay attention. Then have the mods delete one of these threads (or merge them), posting the same question in multiple threads is lame.
Click to expand...

Agreed. A couple other things:

1. Using all four fingers on double bass in the lower positions still requires shifts and pivots to span four half-steps, just slightly smaller shifts.

2. It isn't going to simplify anything. If you get it to work, and I am saying "if" - it will give a richer, more complex technique.

3. It will not tranfer to bass guitar 1 to 1.

4. Using it as default is not going to be good for intonation.

5. Just because it works/worked for masters like Arthur Davis, it doesn't mean it will carry over to lesser mortals.
Classical players seem to have more success with it than jazz players. Unstable music requires a more stable fingering system.
 
#15
Dammon

you are right to poaint, i just want the classical approach explain in a simnple matter. The four Finger approach is technique that some bassist use to avoid shifting passages in a very complex passage of solo work or orchestra passage. The less shifting the easier it is to keep a stronger intonation, even the famous Violin teacher Leopold Auer says that.

For me, I like the Simandl over the Nanny since he really tries to keep thing simple, it was not Simandl that made his method dry, it was persons like Zimmerman, who over edited it, from my researc, his original method not only had what we see in it today, but he did throw in it mlodic studies within the same studies or section.

I am switching over to the Sanky Version of the Simandl from the Drew, found it is not as Dry, and I prefer his approach to Bass Playing.

And this is a fact as well, ask my friend Dr, Mark Martin about this, he in his own practices still use the tradtional approach 90% of the time, and then he does 10% of the time with the four finger approach. Like I said above it depends on the passage and the piece.

In fact I only discovered this after I had discovered the Sanky, that Dr. Martin Studied with him personally, so in reality Dr. Martin is continuing ihis teacher approach to pedagogy and more developing the bass technique and looking looking beyond the already established bass schools which I have seen has some positive approaches, but can be very limited for those who want to take the bass to the next as artists not strictly just bassists.

Using both works, I will always think outside the box.
 
#17
Shifting is skills that all double bassist nor matter if they are classical, jazz, or even solo bassist have to work with in time and do it flawlessing. I agree.

I am just saying there are more then one way to skin a cat as the old saying goes. So I will to look at all sides and see what works for me personally as a Artist and Bassist.

The best thing any bassist can do for themselve is work there technique and approach as slow as possible and working it up to the possible speed you can go. And this is using the Metronome in the process, that help internalize the beat and tempo, to make you a better performer, tachnique with out artistry is flawed and the same is true on the other equation as well.

A bassist need to not only be the technicians, but also feel player as well, and feel the beat inside like your heart have a tempo.

I practice every day my quater notes straight first, accent 1 and 3 then 1 and 3 with a metronome this helps develop your since of time as a all around bassist, and also practice pizzacato and bow, for those tools will help you make your bread and better,
 
#19
Pivoting beats open hand anyway; you get an extra semitone of reach, which means you can play a chromatic scale with no shifts at all, only pivots. Much more stable, your thumb never moves. And you can go straight in to thumb position before pivoting stops being an option, so you have quite an overlap where both work.
 
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#20
Andrew McGregor said:
Pivoting beats open hand anyway; you get an extra semitone of reach, which means you can play a chromatic scale with no shifts at all, only pivots. Much more stable, your thumb never moves. And you can go straight in to thumb position before pivoting stops being an option, so you have quite an overlap where both work.
Click to expand...

Depends on set up and many other factors. I haven't found it to be a serious default option, just a great tool to have in a pinch for a tough passage.
 

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