Double Bass The Gear Rabbit Hole

[statsc]

As a dedicated reader of this forum, I am often amazed at the lengths that folks go to in order to get “that sound,” whatever that means. Different mics, pick-ups, combinations of mics and pick-ups, amps, speakers, preamps, hpf’s, stands/pole mounts (not mention strings, basses, bows, rosin, etc.). I count myself in this group as well, having gone down several of these “rabbit holes” myself, and we’re all looking for the same thing: that sound that we have in our heads that makes it so that we don’t have to think about sound anymore and can just focus on the music. A recent performance I attended has gotten me re-thinking about this, and perhaps re-assessing my concept of an ideal sound. This was a performance that included a bassist from New York performing original music and arrangements that I have played recently. It’s always a great learning experience to hear someone else play music you have been playing. The bass player was using what looked to be an older carved bass amplified with a large diameter mic attached to the bass with a bracket clamped to the side and positioned below the bridge close to the top between the treble side f-hole and the strings. I couldn’t tell what kind of strings he was using, though I know they were not spiros. He had a pickup, but it was not plugged into anything. The mic was connected directly to FOH with only a monitor speaker in back of him on some kind of stand. The remarkable thing about his sound was how unremarkable it was! It wasn’t that large, warm, fat, cushiony sound that I prefer, nor was it focused and brittle, or boomy or mid-rangey, or really anything at all. It was just… there; sitting comfortably in the mix where every note was present and audible and supported everything else. It sounded just like a bass sounds when played unamplified with other unamplified instruments from about 10 feet away (even though it and all the other instruments were in fact amplified). Granted, this was in a small concert venue with FOH support in front of a quiet listening audience with a very quiet drummer; his sound probably wouldn’t have worked in the more challenging acoustical environments most of us perform in. However, the concept of the tone of the bass supporting the music and all the other instruments (which mirrors the supportive role I see for myself as a bass player) is sticking with me. Of course, it does take a certain amount of gear to produce this, but the goal may not be MBOL or MBOB anymore; these seem focused more on myself rather than on the music as a whole. If the goal is really to be able to forget about sound and focus on the music, maybe the real rabbit hole is our minds rather than the gear.

 

[Ric Vice]

Surely it is partially, but I played acoustically all the way through high school and college and frankly I don't want to return to those days.

Most of the jazz gigs I played in college were on, curiously enough, a Fender Jazz Bass, even though I took private Double Bass lessons for close to 6 years.

Pickups were so unremarkable then, that the Fender actually sounded better through my Ampeg B-15N(C) than a Barcus Berry or Polytone attached to my Mirecourt Double Bass.

I have been fortunate enough to play with some pretty remarkable musicians in my lifetime, usually with a pickup and amplifier. Most of the time it's been just

great with a Realist, the Walter Woods Ultra and whatever cabinet I had at the time. Solos are something to cherish when you get one, but, as you implied, none of

us get payed by the number of solos we perform. Larry Grenadier does just what you're talking about except he uses a Schoeps CM6/MK41 and it sounds amazing. It's

more expensive to do that but it sounds way better.

 

[Reiska]

I switched to mic only ( mic / pre / powered speaker on a pole ) approach lately and am very happy that I did. I`m not searching for ultimately sweet amplified tone, nor do I have finances, knowledge or interest to do so, but for one that doesn`t annoy me. That never happened with a piezo. For me there`s a bit of a cathegorical problem with first devoting oneself on learning to get a good acoustic tone and then killing it with the signal chain. This has changed now, what comes out from the speaker is totally or very close to what I`m putting in with my bass. For me the dogmatic simplicity is a revelation, but I realize that this approach would be very difficult or impossible for someone who plays in loud environments. I play with drums, electric guitars, reso gtrs, banjos, reeds and horns and electronics but the dynamics are mostly on small stages / chamber music side of things. I`m happy too for that I jumped in and learned to play all acoustic, not relying on a amp. So, I kinda dodged the rabbit hole by forming a dogma. My mic and other gear are all pretty affordable. That said, I have a severe case of soft spot for gut strings and strings in general, so what I`m gaining in one matter has me loosing in another.

 

[sean_on_bass]

My best sound in recent memory was an SM58 on an H-Clamp direct into a powered Alto 1x12 pa speaker on a pole. No preamp was needed. I do think that is the next best thing to being able to be completely acoustic....where possible. The problem is when the volume and the energy of the band makes that hard to achieve. My next best sound in recent memory was the other night at a bar, Realist copper into Headway into GB MB200 into an Eden 1x12. We were playing more soul/rnb tinged jazz with a rock edge at times and a mic setup would just never work in that situation.

What i am learning is that one rig is not going to work with everything. I need to have 3 or 4 different variations to my rig to really cover all the situations i might play in. They don't really need to be complex rigs, but at the end of the day i have a bass amp sort of setup and a powered PA w mic sort of setup, or a combo of the two.

 

[james condino]

I'd bet that much of the time this is the result: we go to tremendous effort and $$$$ for "our sound" on stage for us and the band, but the front of the house barely notices the "cello" player....

 

[Wasnex]

If the goal is really to be able to forget about sound and focus on the music, maybe the real rabbit hole is our minds rather than the gear.

When you have accepted this you will have learned something useful, and you will be much more content.

Make no mistake, having good gear and knowing how to use it is very important. But it's a rare to never occurrence to experience perfect sound in a real working acoustic environment. Life is much better if you can learn to live with good enough. The trick is if you play great, people will think you sound great. The caveat is your sound does have to be at least half way decent.

One thing to consider is most people don't have a clue regarding what good bass sounds like, and most of the ones who do don't share your vision of perfection. So chasing tone is primarily about satisfying your internal needs rather than giving the audience something they are actually concerned about.

All IMHO so YMMV.

 

[kerrycares]

I finally took the path of contentment with a simple Crazy 88 , TC electronics Head and David Gage pickup.
I do have an EA Doubler for backup and my electric bass with 2 Aguilar SL 112 cabs.
After all the shenanigans , dollars spent and time invested my sound really hasn’t got much better or much worse over the last 20 years.
On the other hand, the gear has gotten much lighter.
My favorite sound is no amp.

 

[210superair]

I'd bet that much of the time this is the result: we go to tremendous effort and $$$$ for "our sound" on stage for us and the band, but the front of the house barely notices the "cello" player....

Oh I make sure I'm noticed Dino! Lol.

I get ya though, I don't think 99.9% of a crowd knows or can differentiate in sound differences we think are huge, but they consider subtle to the point of not noticeable.

I go down the rabbit hole this way: I buy something. Use it. Decide if I like it. Play it till it poops out, unless it's total junk and untenable to use. Replace with something else after it poops out. This way I don't throw good money after bad. For instance, weed wackers and gamut red diamonds, won't buy either again, but I'm gonna play my rd's until they poop out. Etc etc...

 

[Stewie]

I play with loud guitars, tube cranked harp and a reasonable drummer. I love the way my bass sounds by itself, but am happy enough with the Krivo pickup and my Ampeg pile.

 

[Ric Vice]

On the other hand, the gear has gotten much lighter.
My favorite sound is no amp.

Agreed. When you consider that I started with a B-15N(C) that weighs in at 70 lbs with the dolly attached, a great deal of what I purchased was moving to something lighter, but

it can't just be lighter to justify buying something new. I had floundered around with various cabinets, trying to match something, with the great sounding Walter Woods Amps I owned, until

Euphonic Audio introduced the VL 108's and 208's nothing really sounded great. Unfortunately, the VL 108 was the ideal size, but the VL 208 was the right sound. Then the TC-112 was the right

sound with both DB and EB but it wasn't the right size. I can truly say that a MAS 1/8 is the right size and the right sound. I love the sound of "no amp" in the right context (i.e. my practice room)

but my bass is to small to compete with other instruments, in a concert setting, unless the hall I'm playing in has phenomonial acoustics and the percussionist is brilliant and a sensitive musical listiner. Just my take of course.

 

[flatback]

Some cats here seem to be so worried about the justification for buying or trying new gear. Who cares? If you like to switch up or try something new, so what? Why is the upright bassist league so fricken uptight? I'm a photographer in my other life and photographers go gonzo over new gear un-apologetically, same with carpenters and all kinds of other enthusiastic craftspeople who love their tools.
But man, I am so tired of uptight squares who judge what they think is an appropriate enthusiasm and then apply their overly tightass mindset to everybody else.
There is plenty of headspace and enthusiasm surplus to both get your sound and practice and study your craft and avocation, and appreciate the new inventions and stuff people come up with to make your craft better.
I personally don't give a sheite about any judgements of serial gear juggling, or experimentation, or any negations of enthusiasms, life is too short. I have friends who spend thousands of dollars on new strings every year,... brilliant, I say keeps those boutique string makers in biz. I know great photographers who use both rare vintage film gear and those that buy the latest $50,000 Hasselblad. I don't judge their pictures by the camera they use or cast aspersions based on gear, or think less of them for their technical camera expertise or care one way or the other.
Every few years there is a discussion like this, seemingly needing justification to follow our enthusiasms for our craft or question it or question the expenses? Why not just relax into your interests and not judge yourselves so much?
Like what you like, share your experience here if you feel like it or not, but chill out dudes, no justification is necessary.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I think many people have a phase of "Gear-rabbit-hole-ness" that they have to go through before they can feel comfortable settling for something in the long term that will enable them to get on with their life and music making; in this sense it's a bit like finding the right partner in that if you hold out for perfection you are doomed to perpetual disappointment. But for those who like experimenting with the latest gear, more power to them! It's their life and time and money, and they actually do us a favor at times by bringing new stuff to the attention of the rest of us.

I exited the rabbit hole years ago once I found the LaScala-->Dominants-->Full Circle-->PJB Superflightcase signal chain and have been perfectly happy ever since.

And lest anyone bring up the Noble preamp I recently bought, that is purely a piece of "first world gear" that I like very much, but which sort of fell in my lap without me actually looking for it too much; I would never have bought one if @vanselus had not been so kind as to lend his to me, and if I had to live without it I would miss it but could still easily make music with what I have.

 

[Don Hergert]

I get a sense that the OP is concerned about rabbit holes acting as distractions from important things. Since I personally lean a bit toward OCD, I tend to call these obsessions. I can understand concerns about distraction, and it doesn't hurt to be reminded about things every once in a while. But everyone has their own obsessions -- certain details that they are more concerned about than others -- and I do think everyone has to strike up their own balance, to choose their own rabbit holes.

• Sometimes things happen accidentally, and you just get lucky...

For example, I played a friend's double bass for a jam about 2 years ago and loved his E and A strings for clarity and touch. He thought they were SilverSlaps, but they were really mis-packaged PolyChromes. So when he told me that they were SilverSlaps, that's what I ordered for my Alcoa E and A strings. When the SilverSlaps arrived I was dismayed to see they were nylon (or some synthetic) wrapped, thinking they'll never last and what will they sound like on my DB? 18 months later now they are showing no wear and I love their touch, clarity, volume and tone on my Alcoa. I may go with gut D and G someday but I'm thinking SilverSlaps E and A on into my future.

Another example, for gear, my son plays electric bass and while he was still living at home about 8 years ago, for his birthday we got him a little Roland Cube Bass RX battery operated combo amp that we thought he'd use exclusively as a practice amp, since he has a pretty nice GK setup. To our surprise he started using the Roland for gigs and mic'ing it, instead of lugging his l larger more sophisticated gear to crowded gigs. Flip forward 6 years and suddenly I'm playing a DB that came to me setup with piezos at jams and gigs, and I'm looking for a very modest amp to use only when absolutely needed -- which incidentally turns out to be most gigs. I borrow my son's Roland for a gig, and am instantly sold; that's what I buy and I've never looked back.

For me, getting into playing DB, and getting my DB itself was somewhat accidental too. I'm glad it worked out this way.

• Some things happen because you educate yourself about them, too...

TB/DB has been such a great thing for me in that regard. Lots of sage wisdom is shared here. I've used a lot of that sage wisdom for playing advice and for making purchasing decisions too -- not all of it, but a lot of it -- and things have been turning out well, for which I'm very thankful.

• Regarding rabbit holes, it's sort of a yin/yang thing...

We all have specific things that we naturally excel at -- our talents -- and it's only natural for us to spend more time on those things. Some people are into strings, some people are into gear, some people are into wood and some are into other materials, some people into acoustic and some into amped, some people are into specific tone or setup or playability. Some people are out on the leading, or bleeding edge, some people are purists, some people are traditionalists. In reality, most of us are partly into of all of it. We all share with and learn from each other. Rabbit holes and all, that's what they call community, where everyone is a piece of the puzzle.

 

[lurk]

A number of years ago a young guy approached me after a gig and wanted to talk gear. He was touring with Joan Baez. Turns out he had 6(!!!) basses he used on the gig. EUB, 6 string, fretless, "boingy" slap and pop, acoustic bass guitar, and old fender with thuddy flatwounds. Joan Baez!!!

 

[AGCurry]

Some cats here seem to be so worried about the justification for buying or trying new gear. Who cares? If you like to switch up or try something new, so what? Why is the upright bassist league so fricken uptight? I'm a photographer in my other life and photographers go gonzo over new gear un-apologetically, same with carpenters and all kinds of other enthusiastic craftspeople who love their tools.
But man, I am so tired of uptight squares who judge what they think is an appropriate enthusiasm and then apply their overly tightass mindset to everybody else.
...
Like what you like, share your experience here if you feel like it or not, but chill out dudes, no justification is necessary.

From what I can see, no one here has come across as an "uptight square" applying "their overly tightass mindset to everybody else."

I don't think these forums would be nearly as valuable if we did not have people advocating a virtue of simplicity as well as those sharing their experiences and questions regarding gear, strings, bows, and all the rest of it. It's all good.

I have to confess that I am a string nut. I've spent thousands on strings just in the last year, searching for string nirvana. But I do listen to those who advocate "just play what you have." There is a (big) element of truth to that, and it helps me to hear it. Chill out, dude!

 

[MLysh]

"But man, I am so tired of uptight squares who judge what they think is an appropriate enthusiasm and then apply their overly tightass mindset to everybody else..."

Daddy-o!

 

[james condino]

A huge problem for all of us is not being able to find gear for our instrument locally to demo, so we read and ask questions and buy and sell and buy and sell...and buy and sell and buy and sell.....Honestly, there are a lot worse vices to have than bass equipment....

 

[Ric Vice]

A huge problem for all of us in not being able to find gear for our instrument locally to demo, so we read and ask questions and buy and sell and buy and sell...and buy and sell and buy and sell.....Honestly, there are a lot worse vices to have than bass equipment....

Absolutely, virtually all the gear I've purchsed in the last 12 years has been something I've had to buy online, sight unseen. If I didn't have the Talkbass roundtable to reffer to, I could have bought a lot gear that looked great on paper but wasn't in practice.

Local St. Louis Music Stores do not carry Acoustic Image*, Euphonic Audio, Grace Designs, Audiokinesis, MAS, Ehrlund Pickups, Headway EDB-2's, Remic Microphones. et.al.

I don't think these forums would be nearly as valuable if we did not have people advocating a virtue of simplicity as well as those sharing their experiences and questions regarding gear, strings, bows, and all the rest of it. It's all good.

I have to confess that I am a string nut. I've spent thousands on strings just in the last year, searching for string nirvana. But I do listen to those who advocate "just play what you have." There is a (big) element of truth to that, and it helps me to hear it. Chill out, dude!

I've certinaly been down that "rabbit hole', trying to find a string that worked equally well for both pizzicato and arco. Evah Parazzi's were talked about lots on Talkbass and when Pirastro came out with them in Weich I got some and I couldn't be happier with the results.

*There is one local store that carries Acoustic Image, but the owner of that particular establishment is a total bell end. IMHO, IME. Just my take of course.

 

[210superair]

A huge problem for all of us in not being able to find gear for our instrument locally to demo, so we read and ask questions and buy and sell and buy and sell...and buy and sell and buy and sell.....Honestly, there are a lot worse vices to have than bass equipment....

Got those too. That's why some of us watch what we spend on bass stuff.... Lol. I can play dirty ol strings, but a bottle of Blantons is a must from time to time...

I must also say that I became aware of this forum before getting too deep into the instrument, so you guys have saved me a lot of money too, just reading what yall dig and don't...

 

[statsc]

I’m glad to see that my musings on tone generated so much interesting discussion! And musings are really all they are, brought upon perhaps by a temporary lull in gigs affording the time to hear some live music and ponder different tonal perspectives. I really do appreciate the efforts of those more prone to experiment than me (flatback, Ric V. and Rick W.) in winnowing out the gear field and introducing us to interesting and effective options. My thoughts on these matters are specific to my mindset; if they are useful (either in agreement or disagreement) to anyone else, great! Just throwing these out there for food for thought, discussion, or modification. I’m not even sure how strongly I’ll hold to them myself.

And now it’s time to go prepare for the gig tonight, where I’ll get to try out my new MAS 18 for the first time! Can’t wait to get my hands on the Sarno BB, due on my doorstep any day now. The rabbit hole beckons!