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The "Laptop-based live rig" club
- Thread starter Naigewron
- Start date
I'd never play a gig with a "laptop rig" if I could avoid it.
There is already too many potential problems at an average gig
and too many potential problems in an average laptop
There is already too many potential problems at an average gig
and too many potential problems in an average laptop
Curious what interface and sample rate are you using, and how you're measuring the latency. If the hardware plus the plugin processing time is that low that's pretty good, better than many digital wireless units, as good as many digital pedals and certainly as good as many digital mixers at 48K.
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If you can have an interface where the plugin is in the Interface like Apollo UAD or Antelope Audio then that helps. For me. Even though I have a 2015 MacBook computer. It is airgapped during performance. WiFi and Bluetooth off and I run the DAWs or VST insteuments in priority mode. This box is just to play virtual instruments. No email no messaging no SIRI. No accounts on the browser no iCloud. Backup using Tune machine only. No office applications.
Ableton Live and Native Instruments Maschine are proven stable platforms for PC in music performance. I make sure cables are quality. And have strain relief. Only quality interface. I avoid powering interface from the USB bus and prefer them to have their own PSU For fast workflow I use a MIDI controller to control the VST paraneters. I only load what I need and if I can use hardware reverbs then I do that. And never do any mixing or PA duties on your virtual instrument.
Even though I was an early adaptor of Guitar Rig, I'd rather not use computers for guitars. And for the bass gigs I do, a DI is the best thing and maybe a preamp with DI.
I've been doing synth gigs again and the workflow is faster and more creative with synth that have knobs. So Korg Modwave for example can do what Serum or Massive can and more. My StudioLogic Numa X is as good as most piano libraries specially for gigging. It is a fantastic stage piano. And with my WaveState and Opsix all from Korg, I can do almost any sound design on the fly. I do keep the MacBook as a backup if the keyboards die.
Ableton Live and Native Instruments Maschine are proven stable platforms for PC in music performance. I make sure cables are quality. And have strain relief. Only quality interface. I avoid powering interface from the USB bus and prefer them to have their own PSU For fast workflow I use a MIDI controller to control the VST paraneters. I only load what I need and if I can use hardware reverbs then I do that. And never do any mixing or PA duties on your virtual instrument.
Even though I was an early adaptor of Guitar Rig, I'd rather not use computers for guitars. And for the bass gigs I do, a DI is the best thing and maybe a preamp with DI.
I've been doing synth gigs again and the workflow is faster and more creative with synth that have knobs. So Korg Modwave for example can do what Serum or Massive can and more. My StudioLogic Numa X is as good as most piano libraries specially for gigging. It is a fantastic stage piano. And with my WaveState and Opsix all from Korg, I can do almost any sound design on the fly. I do keep the MacBook as a backup if the keyboards die.
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I’ve not ‘abandoned’, on any instrument. But with keyboards, I’m adding in some modules on iPad. The SWAM big band package, with saxes and horn and trombone, is about as realistic and expressive as one can hope to get from a (modeled) virtual wind instrument. The NUMA Player, which includes grand piano and EP and Clavinet among others, is FREE and is quite good. Then there are a couple free synths and whatnot that are also very good.
Well, not exactly what others are talking about, but I recently built MIDI interface for an old set of Farfisa bass pedals, using an Arduino microcontroller, and used that to control Arturua's ARP/Solina string ensemble on my laptop, with a USB audio interface plugged into channel 2 on my amp. So I played bass (a real bass), and the string ensemble with my feet. The lines were simple, only a few notes at a time, but the difference it made was amazing (our keyboard player left the band ages ago, and some of the songs just really need some keys parts). The only real problem I had was managing to not fall over while pressing the bass pedals!
Oh, and regarding latency, ASIO4ALL fixes the problem, at least for me it always has. There's no latency at all that I can perceive (and not just on the squishy string parts, on anything I play, using any controller and any VST instrument).
Oh, and regarding latency, ASIO4ALL fixes the problem, at least for me it always has. There's no latency at all that I can perceive (and not just on the squishy string parts, on anything I play, using any controller and any VST instrument).
But the actual Numas keyboards (Compact and X) are better
. You get more pianos as well and the Fazziolli is not as wild ( a polite way of saying a bit out of tune) The app used to be a memory hog, Is it fixed now? But yeah you are correct, the best of the Free Piano apps
I love Mainstage. I use it every gig for my keys and backing tracks. I play keys too (with my hands and feet while playing bass...very Geddy-ish) and use Mainstage for all the key sounds. We have some songs that use backing tracks so i use it to run those and it works great. And Im using a pretty old Macbook too and Ive only have a few hiccups over the years but its really because of the age of the computer. But, hundreds of gigs and only a few minor issues is pretty good imo. Im about to upgrade finally thank god.
I have thought alot about trying to use it for my bass rig at some tight gigs. Especially for effects. I have a USB DI for the laptop with two outs so I would likely need to get one that can send at least three to accommodate the bass too. That really has been the only issue or i would do it. I think it scares alot of people that have never tried it.
I've used it pretty successfully for keys and tracks. If just using backing tracks, I might lean on Multitracker 2 on my iPad with laptop as backup. My last drummer would also load in his SPD-SX just in case. For me the big thing was testing beforehand to make sure you know the cable path, what to do if you shutdown and the interface isn't recognized next time you run it, etc. Just get the basics down.
I bounce my tracks from Logic to MP3, including click track and then hard pan them. Multitracker is nice as you can split the instruments and balance for live performance. You can do this in Mainstage as well.
I'm now experimenting with a Nektar Pacer as a quasi-Moog Taurus type thing and it has a lot of promise. Basically can trigger 6 chords per song utilizing the Chord Trigger plugin, plus add another layer if I need (e.g., Synth bass, percussion, etc.) then I have some transport options on the top row. It was cheaper than the Crumar Mojo, so I'm going to keep experimenting, but so far so good with Mainstage and playing bass at the same time. I bought the Cherry Audio Lowdown plugin, so I've been messing around with the Taurus side of things for some U2 tunes, and it's really fun.
This is where I’m at too. I have an amp and it’s been hanging out in storage for months and months on end.
Even mixed gigs where some guys have to use amps, give me the in ears and I’m cool. As long as I can hear. I’m using a stomp straight to the mixer and all is well, I’m not sure why I would want to drag a whole laptop into things and have to deal with it on stage.
It's really a pretty natural thing to go "hey maybe I should try that" if you're DJing and used to bringing a laptop and plugging it into a PA anyway. On the other hand, I find the whole concept of using a pedalboard alien and scary. All that stuff to carry, all those connections, and you expect me to step on things in the middle of a song?
I don’t need a plethora of grand pianos, just a few. Between Numa’s 1983D and the Yamaha CFX, I think I’ve got it covered. The app itself ran well on my 8 year old iPad (replaced just a month ago, as some of the synths would not run on it).But the actual Numas keyboards (Compact and X) are better
And it’s not just the best free piano app. I accidentally downloaded the Korg Module app (cost nine bucks or something), and its “grand piano” sounds dull and lifeless by comparison to the NUMA. Through the right speakers in a good room, the NUMA sounds very much like a Steinway grand piano.
I have the Keith McMillen 12 Step for the foot pedals triggering sounds/chords/events in Mainstage. The only thing i dont love about the 12 step is that there are no dedicated transport pedals. In Mainstage I can assign any pedal to use transport options to get around it but it would be nice if they at least had next/previous pedals.
And, i run my backing tracks out from Mainstage using the two outputs on my USB DI. One has the click, the other has the keys/backing stuff. I dont pan anything as it gets run to the PA and into our ears but not sent out front. Interesting to hear other options.
Some of the excellent posts above in this thread have me thinking about how I might explore using my Kawai ES100 piano as a MIDI controller.
This piano has MIDI in and out DIN connectors. I see that there is an adapter cable with two DIN connectors on one end and a USB C connector on the other end. I have a USB C hub that I bought to use with the M4 Mac Mini. I assume that I should be able to connect the Kawai to the hub and then use the Audio MIDI Setup default configuration on the Mac to employ the Kawai as a MIDI keyboard.
I would like to get the sound of my long gone Fender Rhodes as one use for this setup. (I've got the Hammond/Leslie covered by the real thing, so I don't have to try to cover that ground for my use at home).
I have never used any MIDI hardware and consider myself to be completely ignorant on the subject. I assume MIDI control would be an integral part of implementing a MainStage based setup.
A brief search turned up this example of an adapter cable:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/mioXC--iconnectivity-mioxc-1x1-usb-c-midi-din-midi-interface
I assume that the data rate of the MIDI signal would not tax the capability of a USB C cable so that I could use a long cable to get from the piano to the USB C hub. Is this something that would work with maybe a four foot or longer length USB C cable?
Any limitations or recommendations on an adapter cable to do this would be appreciated.
Thanks!
This piano has MIDI in and out DIN connectors. I see that there is an adapter cable with two DIN connectors on one end and a USB C connector on the other end. I have a USB C hub that I bought to use with the M4 Mac Mini. I assume that I should be able to connect the Kawai to the hub and then use the Audio MIDI Setup default configuration on the Mac to employ the Kawai as a MIDI keyboard.
I would like to get the sound of my long gone Fender Rhodes as one use for this setup. (I've got the Hammond/Leslie covered by the real thing, so I don't have to try to cover that ground for my use at home).
I have never used any MIDI hardware and consider myself to be completely ignorant on the subject. I assume MIDI control would be an integral part of implementing a MainStage based setup.
A brief search turned up this example of an adapter cable:
https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/mioXC--iconnectivity-mioxc-1x1-usb-c-midi-din-midi-interface
I assume that the data rate of the MIDI signal would not tax the capability of a USB C cable so that I could use a long cable to get from the piano to the USB C hub. Is this something that would work with maybe a four foot or longer length USB C cable?
Any limitations or recommendations on an adapter cable to do this would be appreciated.
Thanks!
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FullumMusic
Commercial User
- Oct 13, 2022
- 2,010
- 5,686
- Disclosures
- Audio/Music software developer, contracted with a company you've heard of and deving my own stuff.
Tuner -> HPF @ 20Hz -> Compressor -> ABY Spliter...
...Splitter A -> Preamp -> Interface Channel 1
...Splitter B -> -1 Octave 100% -> LPF -> Interface Channel 2
Essentially:
- a Bass chan and Sub chan going into my computer.
- Then on the computer i have Ableton Live with a channel for the Bass Chan & a channel for the Sub Chan. They're essentially thru-channels.
- Those are each bussed to their own channels where i have different "FX Racks" loaded with plugins and effects.
- Those are both bussed to a single channel that acts as a bass & sub sub-group.
- I can put FX on the Bass chan, Sub chan, or the Group, and activate/mute them individually or together.
I use actual channels for all this, not Aux Sends or Channel Groups so that can use dummy clips to control the automations as i play. So i can just play and Ableton takes care of all the FX changes, filter sweeps, swells, etc. and can automate multiple changes at the same time that would be impossible with just an expression pedal: certain FX turning on & off for just one note every other measure; distortion increasing while a filter frequency sweeps, while the filter resonance peaks, while reverb wet/dry increases, and then everything mutes, and then comes back on; Different FX racks are activated/deactivated for each song as needed; etc.
I also have a Silent Kick running the whole time. It's a basic 909 kick drum, 4 on the floor, muted. But it means i can sidechain a kick to my FX, and its one predictable kick that all the FX will react to in a predictable way, and i adjust based on what the song needs as far as parameters go. And it's always going. So i don't have to deal adjusting for all the different kick samples in my different songs, and i can keep the sidechains pumping even when the song doesn't have any kick in it.
---
Also, i'm working on a little project (that i've been procrastinating with on the back burner for too long.)
I'm writing a program that's gonna go on the Raspberry Pi in this pic. It'll get a 5" touchscreen. (smaller than the touchscreen on the other Raspberry Pi in the pic). Then it'll be mounted into a bass guitar and the pickups will run directly into the RasPi. You can turn on different digital FX running in my app, and control them with either an XY controller on the touchscreen, or different sensors like a 3D Orientation sensor, distance sensor (think theremin), or 3D accelerometer. It's got Waveshape distortion, Foldback Distortion, Bitcrushing, LPF, Formant filter, stereo tap delay, chorus, and Haas effect. (Hopefully talking about it will motivate me to finish it.)
The Keith seemed a bit small to me, meaning could tap 2 switches at the same time with my size 12.5/47 dogs. I dig the Crumar Mojo concept, but that is probably my FOMO/wistful desire for a proper Moog Taurus, although I'm curious if there is a velocity benefit from them vs. the Nektar Pacer, which is basically on at 127 or off when you press a switch. It's also a 2-step programming thing with the online template, which Mainstage then picks up. Said differently, I can't freely program the switches by song/patch in Mainstage across MIDI message type - e.g., use a button for Portamento/Glide on/off for song 1, and then make that same button chord/note for song 2. I have 2 external pedals now, 1 switch, 1 expression that accomplish these things (sustain, portamento on/off, etc), and then keep the bottom 6 Pacer buttons for chords. Still experimenting.
As a newbie, the hard pan for the audio stuff worked and allowed for running tracks. I'm thinking of experimenting with a less biased pan next go to see if it feels more natural in the ears (I have a similar send as you - L out is click/cues, R out is track music) via Clarett 2pre. I worked off of Scott Uhl's setup from his YT channel; he and some of the worship guys on YT do some really great videos on how to get a good set of live tracks, output leveling, etc. whether with Mainstage or other options (Logic, Multitracker, etc.)
I know David Rosenthal with Billy Joel uses Mainstage exclusively (and visually verified with a behind the stage seat!), so it's got that kind of horsepower. I was laughing when Billy did "An Innocent Man" as David plays Billy's grand piano and Mark Rivera (sax player), just keeps hitting middle Dnat on 1 of the 5 MIDI controllers to play the finger snaps with Billy (I had a view of his MBP screen in Mainstage performance mode).
I use laptops/digital for recording (of course) and am totally comfortable with that use, but I'm leery of using computers live for environmental reasons. I live and do live work where it can get quite hot in the summer months, and I have had ipads for simple setlist stuff, and laptops doing the PA control surface work, totally shut down due to over heating, and no amount of backup hardware really gets you over this issue. I did have one sound tech keep a PA laptop mixer in a cooler on a very hot gig, but that seems to be inviting another set of electronics/moisture issues.
Interesting idea for sure, lots going on in the digital realm and I know big pro touring bands use lots of digital tech, but it does seem to be a pretty serious single point of failure under certain environmental situations.
Interesting idea for sure, lots going on in the digital realm and I know big pro touring bands use lots of digital tech, but it does seem to be a pretty serious single point of failure under certain environmental situations.
The 12 Step is small and took some time to get used to. Now I am good though. When I got them I was hoping to use a workstation keyboard for the sounds and a hardware sample player for the backing tracks and hook it up via midi, so the software was also important for me. You can use their application and create chords and stuff which is really nice. Now Mainstage lets you do all that too.
Years ago i had access to a beat up set of Taurus pedals and really liked the organ like pedals (I had no idea what. i was doing with the sounds tho lol). I eventually want to get something like that (Rolands PK/Studiologics/Crumars), but they take up alot of floor space. The 12 step fits perfectly on my pedal board and that fits perfectly between the feet of my keyboard stand. But the 12 step gives no "tactile" feeling like pushing an organ pedal down and that took some time for me to get used to.
Yep, PC, iPad,
No external effects.
Backing tracks, all done by DAW and plugins.
Low latency, no dropouts, totally reliable.
No external effects.
Backing tracks, all done by DAW and plugins.
Low latency, no dropouts, totally reliable.
In 2017 some producers in the loft down the hall left behind a Roland XP-80 keyboard that needed repair. I fixed it but wasn't happy with its default onboard sounds. While trying to source the Vintage Keys card for it someone suggested GSI VST plugins. I was astounded by their Hammond emulation (VB3 1.4). Soon after I found Lounge Lizard for electric pianos, Minimogue VA for Moog, Esline for Solina, Ob-xd for Oberheim and Kontakt for sample-based instruments.
I then found Cantabile Performer VST host software. Many pros such as Adrien Lee of Mike and the Mechanics, Fred Schendel of Glass Hammer, Neil Durant of IQ, even our own @Gefilter1001, Tim Starace of YYNOT use it. The software is robust and show-ready but as Hoochie Coochie Man mentioned you have to rehearse using it.
I built a single enclosure that has a Behringer UMC202HD audio interface, a powered USB hub and a 2015 Lenovo x230 business laptop (1TB SSD and 16GB) running Windows 10. I don't even need to open the laptop for the open mics and jam sessions. Other people can use the rig because 8 pads on my Axiom 61 controller are labeled for each instrument. When pressed Cantabile deactivates the current instrument and activates the one assigned to the pad - Hammond, acoustic piano, Wurlitzer EP, Rhodes EP, Moog, Oberheim, Mellotron and Kontakt based Pedal Steel. The above was well worth the setup effort and learning curve for keyboards.
For bass practice I use an IK Axe I/O into Cantabile with the Plugin Alliance Ampeg B-15N. Despite all this I prefer an amp for bass gigs.
I then found Cantabile Performer VST host software. Many pros such as Adrien Lee of Mike and the Mechanics, Fred Schendel of Glass Hammer, Neil Durant of IQ, even our own @Gefilter1001, Tim Starace of YYNOT use it. The software is robust and show-ready but as Hoochie Coochie Man mentioned you have to rehearse using it.
I built a single enclosure that has a Behringer UMC202HD audio interface, a powered USB hub and a 2015 Lenovo x230 business laptop (1TB SSD and 16GB) running Windows 10. I don't even need to open the laptop for the open mics and jam sessions. Other people can use the rig because 8 pads on my Axiom 61 controller are labeled for each instrument. When pressed Cantabile deactivates the current instrument and activates the one assigned to the pad - Hammond, acoustic piano, Wurlitzer EP, Rhodes EP, Moog, Oberheim, Mellotron and Kontakt based Pedal Steel. The above was well worth the setup effort and learning curve for keyboards.
For bass practice I use an IK Axe I/O into Cantabile with the Plugin Alliance Ampeg B-15N. Despite all this I prefer an amp for bass gigs.
