the Late Great James Jamerson..

[GROOVEjunkie]

More tear jerking reads about James..
http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html

Wow!! What's up with Carol Kaye's assertions she played on a lot of Motown's classics instead of Jamerson when there's apparently nothing but her word to back it up??

What are we missing?

Seriously Carol, ***?!!?

RIP James, you have touched more people than you could have EVER imagined. You are immortal.

 

[SamJ]

Wow!! What's up with Carol Kaye's assertions she played on a lot of Motown's classics instead of Jamerson when there's apparently nothing but her word to back it up??

What are we missing?

Seriously Carol, ***?!!?

RIP James, you have touched more people than you could have EVER imagined. You are immortal.

Do some searches, you'll be shocked to see that many on this forum are actually coming to her defense... (these things were apparently debated ad endum well before I joined this forum).

 

[ElMon]

 

[Murf]

Do some searches, you'll be shocked to see that many on this forum are actually coming to her defense... (these things were apparently debated ad endum well before I joined this forum).

I'm of the firm belief that Carol Kaye DID play on a lot of the Motown classics...

Problem is..which versions???

The Funk Bros. IMO played on all the "classic" motown tunes however Motown shipped their operations to LA in the late 60s early 70s (I think) and a lot of tunes were re-recorded for different vocalists / sessions etc using LA musicians and seeing as Carol was part of the famous "wrecking crew" its conceivable she played bass on a lot of these sessions...the problem though is which VERSION of the tunes did she play on.

eg. Jamerson and Carol recorded a track for "I was made to love her"...now, there is no doubt in my mind that its Jamersons Bassline on Stevie Wonders classic BUT I think its quite possible/realistic that Carol recorded a VERSION of it as well.

Murf

 

[SamJ]

I'm of the firm belief that Carol Kaye DID play on a lot of the Motown classics...

Problem is..which versions???

The Funk Bros. IMO played on all the "classic" motown tunes however Motown shipped their operations to LA in the late 60s early 70s (I think) and a lot of tunes were re-recorded for different vocalists / sessions etc using LA musicians and seeing as Carol was part of the famous "wrecking crew" its conceivable she played bass on a lot of these sessions...the problem though is which VERSION of the tunes did she play on.

eg. Jamerson and Carol recorded a track for "I was made to love her"...now, there is no doubt in my mind that its Jamersons Bassline on Stevie Wonders classic BUT I think its quite possible/realistic that Carol recorded a VERSION of it as well.

Murf

Sorry Murf my friend, but I'm not going there... any conversation / debate where the talents and skill of the greatest bass player of all time (in my view) are compared to an average player who plays a bass with a pick is a none starter for me. I'm quite sure that if KK were not a women, nobody would even know of her.. while her body of work is large, her work itself was at best ordinary.

 

[BassLand]

I would agree that some other version must be what she is talking about but, the problem with any assertion of different versions is the fact that Ms Kaye is adamant that she recorded (and invented the lines) on the original 4 tops and Stevie Wonder recordings on Motown (IWMTLH and Bernadette for example) and ALL conventional wisdom indicates she did not.

http://bassland.net/jamerson.html

 

[BassLand]

Groove Junkie,

You from South Jersey? I am originally from South Jersey by the shore in Asbury Park! Small world...

BL

 

[JimmyM]

Sorry Murf my friend, but I'm not going there... any conversation / debate where the talents and skill of the greatest bass player of all time (in my view) are compared to an average player who plays a bass with a pick is a none starter for me. I'm quite sure that if KK were not a women, nobody would even know of her.. while her body of work is large, her work itself was at best ordinary.

No offense, but this will go down as one of the dumbest posts in the history of Talkbass. I think Carol Kaye is one of the crankiest people ever to live, but she is not only a brilliant bassist, she is a brilliant guitarist as well. And not only in pop music of the 60's, but she is a smokin' jazz player on both instruments. If you ever got into a bass duel with her, you would get your ass handed to you. Great bassists all over the world still go to her for advice, including some of your favorites, no doubt.

As for your smarmy crack about using a pick, I think you're not as good as bass players who use a pick because you can't use one. How do you like that?

 

[SamJ]

No offense, but this will go down as one of the dumbest posts in the history of Talkbass. I think Carol Kaye is one of the crankiest people ever to live, but she is not only a brilliant bassist, she is a brilliant guitarist as well. And not only in pop music of the 60's, but she is a smokin' jazz player on both instruments. If you ever got into a bass duel with her, you would get your ass handed to you. Great bassists all over the world still go to her for advice, including some of your favorites, no doubt.

As for your smarmy crack about using a pick, I think you're not as good as bass players who use a pick because you can't use one. How do you like that?

Awe, did I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry, please accept my sincerest apologies.

 

[JimmyM]

Get a room, you two.

 

[SamJ]

See post edit above.

 

[GROOVEjunkie]

gotcha OK...I get it.

I just read the link and was taken back. I shouldn't be surprised that a claim this bold has already been discussed here at TalkBass, but I didn't see it mentioned in this particular thread.

I hope I haven't peeled a scab.

I've just never heard these claims before.

 

[GROOVEjunkie]

Thanks Sam for putting this up. Jamerson gave so much to all us bass players. He deserves so much respect and I am saddend by the fact that he died never knowing how much he has been appreciated. And just before he died some low down thug stole his bass that did all those hits.

Do you think the thief had/has any idea of the historical piece he has stolen (or sold)?

It would be the (next) ultimate disgrace to hear that his stolen Funk Machine was thrown somewhere or not cared for after all its done.

I would hope that if the crook really did know whose bass it was and what it (and its rightful owner) meant to the history of music, that they would do the right thing and give it to say, a museum, like the Smithsonian.

 

[CBRStingray]

I just read through this entire thread... and now I think I'm going to have to go and re-watch my Standing in the Shadows of Motown DVD

 

[BassLand]

Just read over at "another site" where CK says the lines to Bernadette & IWMTLH were notated but that she changed them. If they were notated, the song had already been done by one James Jamerson and some Motown arranger wrote out what he thought Jamerson's (invented) lines were so that the hot shot from California could just "read the chart".

BTW I go over to that other site quite often. I feel compelled to watch whatever drivel comes out (especially some of the rude things that were said about BassLand, I have a exstensive file of things that were said)

 

[SamJ]

btw, for the record, and to demonstrate my objectivity, I do think CK is a great guitarist (probably best female bar none), and a great musician, but as a "Bassist" I think she's average at best.. sorry, but that my OPINION.

 

[BassLand]

agreed...

 

[Blackbird]

Folks, please don't get carried away. Name calling is juvenile.

 

[BassLand]

originally Posted by JimmyM
"she is not only a brilliant bassist, she is a brilliant guitarist as well. And not only in pop music of the 60's, but she is a smokin' jazz player on both instruments. If you ever got into a bass duel with her, you would get your [butt] handed to you. Great bassists all over the world still go to her for advice, including some of your favorites, no doubt."

Going on the statement was made....

"I think you're not as good as bass players who use a pick because you can't use one. How do you like that?"

BassLand says:

The above statements definately put you squarely in the "Pick/Guitrarist playing bassist" camp. I would not confuse not playing with a pick with choosing not to play with one. Lots of fast notes? Pick players have it hands down. I don't (not can't) use a pick (Hell I started out playing with a pick because it was a guitarist's idea that I get a bass and he played with one (so much for the logic of a 13 year old). The first time I saw a real bassist he was playing with his fingers and all thoughts of a pick went out the window. This is when I became a bassist. I was 14 at the time.

What Carol Kaye real achievement to bass was she wrote some books presumable with some bass lines that were played by herself and some other people. She was pretty much one of the first ones to do so with hip contemporary basslines. I bought one of her books.

But I found her playing stiff (like being read) and I do not care for the "pick sound" she raves about. Players can tell when what is being played is written vs. improvised. Certainly not absolutely but to a greater degree. Jamerson was one of the first and greatest improvisors in recorded bass.

Most of the basslines she is famous (not infamous) for are the Beach Boys and a few other west coast & surf artist of the 1960's.

There was a joke that I used to see which featured a map of the united states with California on the left and NY on the right and a vast wilderness between them. It was said that people in NY & CA. viewed the country that way (it was a joke after all). But Ms. Kaye would have you think that most of the recorded (R&B, Soul, and Motown) hits were done in L.A. which is simply not true.

I am old enough to remember when a lot of recording companies went to L.A. Motown was in 1972 (Although thye had a west coast office earlier). They prised their sound so much (Reggie Dozier told me) they considered tearing the building on West Grand Blvd down and reconstructing it in L.A. (They dicided against that move). Jamerson came west with motown althoiugh he really did not prosper in L.A. Why would he be here if the star bassist that they have been (according to CK) hiding all these years already lived here?

What I see a lot of on the forums is when someone speaks in critical terms about the choices Ms. Kaye has made regarding credits someone (usually supporting her) comes and says something rude and the Mods make the thread go away. I hope that does not happen here...


BL

 

[TopCat]

Watching SITSOM really accentuates the point that Jamerson was part of a band which knew each other intimately and were on the "same page".

It seems unlikely she would have been able to walk into the Funk Bros setup and start jamming with Benny Benjamin etc without any of them being able to recall it.

As one said "Nothing changed but the changes..."