I work mainly with amateurs when I'm teaching and writing. Every minute I spend making things clear in my writing saves me ten minutes at rehearsals. With each band. (With pros it saves me two minutes). Time well spent.
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I like it when good players try to improve what I have written. I don't like it when not so good players try to show off. I like to think I can tell the difference. (And if I absolutely don't want it, I'll write "as written").
N.B. Thank you, Fredrik for your nice comments.
Let me provide an example from my (previous) lame attempts to concoct some kind of song/s where chord voicing had some meaning to me.
In a pop song with a chord progression as Em | Am | D6/9 (7)/ Fmaj||Gmaj | Abmaj || B maj | Eb maj, etc...,
I wanted to hear aurally that D6/7/9 or D7/9 add6 chord as a "crowded and irritatingly-annoying" chord; therefore, I did not call it as some derivative from D13. What's more, I was "tormented" by choosing even the simplest piano left hand voicing/s.
Here are just a few attempts to find the best suited Aurality for the D6/7/9 chord.
And if I spend my time toiling on that one chord in order to achieve my intended Aurality, I don't care if this/that musician laughs at my chord notation, and I don't like if even good musicians are trying to "revise" my aurality by just applying their enormous experience.
John Goldsby
Supporting Member
- Mar 4, 2003
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- Bassist @ WDR Big Band Cologne, Discover Double Bass, Conservatorium Maastricht, NL
I like to call this the Steve Gadd 9 chord . . .
Considering the discussion a bit further... I can't recall a chart in which I felt so strongly about a voicing that I wouldn't mind if the harmony playing changed it. I suppose that if I did, I'd probably specify the chord name for the rest of the band - bassist, soloist - and then add a stave or two below the melody to actually specify the voicing for the pianist because clearly, chord names are open to interpretation.
There are certainly times when I have a preference for a voicing. For instance, the first chord in Les Feuilles Mortes, I like as a Minor 11 b13 chord because I like the movement as the b13 of the first chord rises to the Major 3rd of the next chord. To my ear, I like the additional harmonic movement. But, if the pianist plays that chord without the 13th or as a Natural 13th, I might think, "too bad, kinda dull" and then I'd almost certainly play the Natural 13th if it's melodically congruent in my bass line.
In most cases, I really enjoy hearing the different way pianists, guitarists, and vibraphonists chose to voice chords, and particularly with well developed players because they bring their recognizable musical personality to their choices; even if their musical personality isn't my favorite, I still appreciate what they bring because it makes the performance unique.
There are certainly times when I have a preference for a voicing. For instance, the first chord in Les Feuilles Mortes, I like as a Minor 11 b13 chord because I like the movement as the b13 of the first chord rises to the Major 3rd of the next chord. To my ear, I like the additional harmonic movement. But, if the pianist plays that chord without the 13th or as a Natural 13th, I might think, "too bad, kinda dull" and then I'd almost certainly play the Natural 13th if it's melodically congruent in my bass line.
In most cases, I really enjoy hearing the different way pianists, guitarists, and vibraphonists chose to voice chords, and particularly with well developed players because they bring their recognizable musical personality to their choices; even if their musical personality isn't my favorite, I still appreciate what they bring because it makes the performance unique.
Mon Dieu!
Are you saying that your Cmin9,11 chord on LFM/AL (in Gminor), has an Ab in it?! (Or does it just contain an inner voice chromatic movement, of the G for instance, up to an Ab, on it's way to A natural on the F7 chord?)
Can you show us your voicing?
Thanks, Tom.
That's not a raised fifth but a minor sixth in the second chord. It is often notated that way, but it is wrong and misleading for finding the scale notes by looking at the chord symbol.
Sorry - can you write this in conventional notation? I can't "see" the actual voicings, esp. the "Xmin... with a "b13".
Thanks.
OK. I see your voicing(s) now.
Regarding both (key) examples above - I have never cared much for the sound of a minor chord with a b6/b13 - In the "Cmin" example above, for instance, that Db in the Fmin chord strongly pulls my ear to hear it as a Bbminor chord (with an F in the bass), Or, a Dbmaj chord (with an F in the bass.) Much like the first (Fmin) chord of "All The Things You Aren't"...I prefer the sound of either the Natural 6 or (b)7 or Both.
But that's me.
Thanks, Tom.
Vive La Difference!And that's the "thrill", "surprise", "support" of jazz voicings, no? "la diversité est le sel de la vie!", no, mon amie? I like it one way, you like it another, as long as we're both "intentional" and not lazy about our voicing preferences, we're both right... or at least, I'm right.
So here, to move the convo along, what 5 finger voicings do you like for the 1st two chords of LFM?
I like these for the first 2 chords of LFM:
In my example it's best viewed as a raised 5th. If you use b6 in a chord symbol it implies that there also is a perfect 5th. (And I've only seen b6 in a chord a couple of times in writing, it's customary to use b13). As stated: The only times you should use +5 in a minor chord is when it's part of a sequence like "Bmi - Bmi+(5) - Bmi6". This is very common, and much easier to read than "Bmi - G/B - Bmi6".
In the scale there is a perfect fifth, so notating the minor sixth as a raised fifth is wrong because that would mean there is no perfect fifth in the scale. The only scales where you need to do such things are 8-note scales, typically with a b9#9.
It might be easier to read to someone who is used to interpret it your way, but for someone who still learns this is irritating because there is no scale that fits that chord literally, except maybe the 8-note diminished scale which is not what the experienced players would play. These two scales won't fit well when played simultaneously, at least not if it is not done by intention.
Things like that makes it difficult to interpret jazz changes correctly as well as the wrong use of accidentals to avoid double sharps and flats or by using the wrong enharmonic.
Well, I agree with most of what you say. On the same time: if you were to improvise over a mi+5 chord, you would probably avoid the perfect 5th (unless you play a chromatic line or similar). And, again: the only time it should be used is in a sequence where it's meaning is obvious.
I think one of the big differences between pop and jazz playing is that in jazz harmonic sounds are much more flexible than in pop where very specific colors are dictated. As these styles are becoming conflated the traditional way jazz guys play, on Autumn Leaves in Eb in the example above, thinking of some kind of f- to some kind of Bb7 to some kind of Eb can rub with younger more pop-aware players. I personally prefer as vague notation as possible so I can join in with everyone by ear and create a sound in the moment. Sometimes when there's slightly different ideas on exact chords that's the best music. I would refer everyone to any recording of Miles 2nd great quintet.
Yes, it should only be +. The (5) is just to make it clear here. I should have used [5] to avoid confusion
No, for the same reason as you have mentioned. We don't need that perfect 5th.
P.S. My question was about your (5) notation. In your answer, you have clearly notated that chord as Bmi + without (5) - just the way I like it.
I know - it was some typo.
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Not in the chord, but the perfect fifth is still part of the scale and the chord is just a special selection of notes from the scale.
If Bmi b6 means that the fifth is still played on the chord (I think I does, but also think that the fifth is usually omitted in the interpretation by the voicing), then G/B would be the clearest choice, but not everyones favoutite.
How would you notate the following chord
Major seventh flatted third augmented fifth
R b3 #5 7 ?
