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Double Bass The names of the left hand positions.

Jack Clark

Jack Clark

Aug 17, 2008
1,022
14
Idyllwild, California
#1
I did several searches for this, with no result:

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know enough about the history of double bass methods to explain why the traditional classical numbering system has been hP, I, II, II/III (or II½), III, III/IV (or III½), IV, V, etc. instead of simply I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, etc.?
 
#2
There was a sort-of explanation on page 67 or so of the Edouard Nanny method book. Something about whole steps and half steps dictating naming, as in III/IV covers a step and a half as opposed to the strict whole step interval a la I. I'll double check the specifics when I go to my locker tomorrow.
 
#3
I once read somewhere that the Simandl method was geared towards teaching students that already had some training on other bowed stringed instruments to play the double bass. To make the crossover easier, the positions were numbered to correspond to the positions on a violin. Because of the longer scale of the double bass, more shifting was required and the half positions were added where necessary to fill in the gaps. I don’t know for sure if any of this is true, but it does provide the only reasonable explanation I’ve been able to find for what otherwise seems to be an illogical numbering system.
 
#4
Fred Emens said:
I once read somewhere that the Simandl method was geared towards teaching students that already had some training on other bowed stringed instruments to play the double bass. ...
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This is probably true, but I was taught that the main reason is that it is based on a diatonic rather than chromatic mindset. In our 21stC world it makes most sense to name Hp 1st position, first position second position, etc., but 19thC pedagogues were bound to theological dogma about how the world worked, even extending to harmony and performance practice. C and G were more pure and close to God than F and Bb, after all, so the nomenclature makes sense in that context.

On the other hand, naming 12 positions up to the octave is also cumbersome. In my teaching I try to avoid position names altogether. I simply say for example, if your fourth finger is on D on the G-String, then what pitch will come from pressing the second finger on the A-String? I think this is a much more effective way of reaching youth and teaching bass than slamming Simandl books in front of them. I am a Simandl disciple, but I propose that his books are no longer useful in pedagogy.
 
#5
Jack Clark said:
I did several searches for this, with no result:

Just out of curiosity, does anybody know enough about the history of double bass methods to explain why the traditional classical numbering system has been hP, I, II, II/III (or II-1/2), III, III/IV (or III-1/2), IV, V, etc. instead of simply I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, etc.?
Click to expand...
It's a cumbersome system, to be sure. The Rabbath method renames the positions as one through six, based on the overtone series (harmonics) of the string. A clear illustration of this system is available in his method books.
 
#6
I don't think of position numbers myself when I play and I don't find it comming up in lessons I teach either. Just teaching the notes you get in each position along with looking at several fingerings for each scale/etude/composition seems to take care of it.

Let's keep the Simandl digs in the MANY Simandl threads, lots of great players and teachers still swear by it and plenty prefer something else.
 
#7
robobass said:
On the other hand, naming 12 positions up to the octave is also cumbersome.
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why do you think that?
I think naming the positions from 1 till 12 (first finger or thumb on octave the open string octave) and so on is very logical. On guitar or electric bass you do the same. Every other system is illogical to me.
I never can (or even want to) remember the Simandl position names.
 
#8
A teacher once pointed out to me that there is a direct correspondence between the whole number positions and the letters A-G of the alphabet, as follows:

If, *always* playing only on the A string and *always* using only your left hand index finger, you sound the pitches, B, C, D, E, F, G, and octave A, you will have defined all the whole number left hand positions I through VII. The low open A string defines position zero or open string position and completes the picture.

This neatly explains why there is no position I½ or IV½, because there is no space between B and C or E and F.

I don't know if this is how Simandl came up with his nomenclature, but it makes sense and it's easy to remember.
 
#9
tstone said:
A teacher once pointed out to me that there is a direct correspondence between the whole number positions and the letters A-G of the alphabet, as follows:

If, *always* playing only on the A string and *always* using only your left hand index finger, you sound the pitches, B, C, D, E, F, G, and octave A, you will have defined all the whole number left hand positions I through VII. The low open A string defines position zero or open string position and completes the picture.

This neatly explains why there is no position I½ or IV½, because there is no space between B and C or E and F.

I don't know if this is how Simandl came up with his nomenclature, but it makes sense and it's easy to remember.
Click to expand...

Of course, this only works on the A string, which would have been selected for naming the hand positions because why . . . it's the first letter of the alphabet? . . . That's as good a reason as any, I guess. I can buy it. Perhaps that's the same reason they use an A to tune an orchestra, or that A is the first (i.e., lowest) note on a piano? I dunno.

Not that this whole question at all matters beyond a trivial curiosity. But thanks for the input, guys. This stuff can be a bit of fun sometimes.
 
#10
tstone said:
If, *always* playing only on the A string and *always* using only your left hand index finger, you sound the pitches, B, C, D, E, F, G, and octave A, you will have defined all the whole number left hand positions I through VII. The low open A string defines position zero or open string position and completes the picture.
Click to expand...

Never looked at it this way but it makes sense. At least it is easy to remember it that way. Thanks for pointing that out!
 
#14
Simandl Fan,
I clicked on the Wikipedia link. A nice little bio, but one interesting word choice:

The second volume of the method looks at the use of thumb and missionary positions using the thumb, first, second and third fingers

Damn, I remember Book 1 being torturous and pedantic, so I never worked all the way through Book 2. What I missed! I really should try to get a lesson with Rabbath someday. I've been told that the French have never heard of this position:)
 
#15
tstone said:
A teacher once pointed out to me that there is a direct correspondence between the whole number positions and the letters A-G of the alphabet, as follows:

If, *always* playing only on the A string and *always* using only your left hand index finger, you sound the pitches, B, C, D, E, F, G, and octave A, you will have defined all the whole number left hand positions I through VII. The low open A string defines position zero or open string position and completes the picture.

This neatly explains why there is no position I½ or IV½, because there is no space between B and C or E and F.

I don't know if this is how Simandl came up with his nomenclature, but it makes sense and it's easy to remember.
Click to expand...
Jack Clark said:
I can't imagine why that would be.
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Because between @ 1700 and 1900 basses conventionally only had three strings, with the A string as the lowest. Basses with four strings with the E string as the lowest, as an accepted, or common, or even mandatory convention, is only a late 19th Century/early 20th Century thing.
 
#16
iiipopes said:
Because between @ 1700 and 1900 basses conventionally only had three strings, with the A string as the lowest. Basses with four strings with the E string as the lowest, as an accepted, or common, or even mandatory convention, is only a late 19th Century/early 20th Century thing.
Click to expand...

Good theory, but were three stringers normally tuned A-D-G? I've always been told that they probably weren't. Also, wasn't four strings and fourths tuning already pretty universal in German speaking countries when Simandl would have been teaching? The way the system was explained to me is based on where your first finger sits on the G-string, going up in C-major. My Book I is long lost, but doesn't this fit the position names? Also, you still get your alphabet starting with A (well, sort of - there's B=Bb and H=B:rolleyes:). It would be pretty unconventional to name positions based on the A string, since pretty much all string teaching methods start out teaching the first string first.

I'm very sad to report that I went through my copy of Book II and found no mention of missionary position:bawl:
 
#18
Paul Barsic said:
I only hope somebody can post a picture. I have an image in my head, but that's going to damage the top table. My preferred method is to stand behind and give a little reach around.
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Yeah, well that works for a few months, but you better find some other options. Otherwise your bass is gonna start wanting other bassists to play it:hmm:
 
#20
In the old Simandl, if the 4th finger,in the closed hand position, fell on an accidental, it was a form of a 1/2 position. Thusly, 1st finger on A (4th on B) was 1st position. Next was 1st on Bb (4th on C) was 2nd. And so, 1st on B (4th on C#) was 2 1/2 position and so forth. In my Practical Studies, 1st on A became A position, 1st on B became B position, and so forth. Makes more sense to me, One less mental step to work through - thus, faster playing.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com
 

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