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The Real Thing -or- Not So Real

#61
As long as it plays well and sounds good and the company that makes them aren't idiots, i could care less about where it was made, who set it up or blessed it before shipping it to me.

I own and gig a Squier as well as a Fodera. Both are great in their own way. The Squier was $300 and mass produced and the Fodera.... Wasn't.:eek:

In fact, I would rather play my Squier than expensive and amazingly playable instruments from a certain famous (to remain nameless) USA builder due to their amazingly terrible customer service. I may not get to speak to the president of Fender if my Squier has a problem, but who cares?

I think some people care too much about where a bass was made (Sadowsky NYC vs. Metro is a great example) and other potentially meaningless variables.

Just IMO.
 
#63
Baird6869 said:
As long as it plays well and sounds good and the company that makes them aren't idiots, i could care less about where it was made, who set it up or blessed it before shipping it to me.

I own and gig a Squier as well as a Fodera. Both are great in their own way. The Squier was $300 and mass produced and the Fodera.... Wasn't.:eek:

In fact, I would rather play my Squier than expensive and amazingly playable instruments from a certain famous (to remain nameless) USA builder due to their amazingly terrible customer service. I may not get to speak to the president of Fender if my Squier has a problem, but who cares?

I think some people care too much about where a bass was made (Sadowsky NYC vs. Metro is a great example) and other potentially meaningless variables.

Just IMO.
Click to expand...

+1. a little off topic, but as a player, a real deal bass is the one that gets me asked to come back to play more gigs. That bass for me is a Carvin, currently. Before that, and for the last 16 years, it was my Squier. First show I played with the Squier, we opened for a band called Urine Luck at a bar called the Brass Mug in Tampa, Florida. This was the debut of our song, Driv-Thru Nudity which was about a local nudie bar that had a drive thru window (Mons, if you Tampa locals are wondering).
 
#64
I tend to think of instruments made in their company's home country as "the real thing". I'm just old fashioned like that. there are certainly tons of great instruments being made outside their home countries, but I save a little extra respect for german warwicks, american fenders, etc.
 
#65
smcd said:
If it's a foreign-made copy, it's not the real deal. The key word here being "copy". It is a "copy" of the real thing.

In every circumstance I can think of, companies outsource production because manufacturing costs are cheaper. No one says "I'm going to outsource production of Fender basses to Switzerland because they do a better job producing basses there". That has never happend.

EBMM is the real deal. They bought out MM, saving the company, and made what most people believe is a better product. A San Luis Obispo EBMM is the real deal. An Indonesian SBMM is not. Simply put, if a product line is moved overseas for the sole purpose of making the product cheaper, it is NOT the real deal.


Asking if your Ric is the real deal because it has a changed pickguard is being fatuous.
Click to expand...

What about an American bass with chinese components?

If the parts for the American bass are sourced from somewhere else, but still assembled in America, is it an "American" bass?

We all know that just about all electronics and plastics are coming from somewhere else these days. Wether it's the tone pot, the pickup cover, the magnet in the pickup, the plastic volume knob, the wiring... If you think your new American made Fender is truly 100% American, I got an all American motorcyle you can buy too.

Would a bass made from licensed Fender parts, still be a Fender bass if it was built by a random person?
 
#66
Personally, I agree with the poster who said it's not the real thing if it's made overseas to cut costs. I have no problem with German Hofners but I do with Chinese "Fenders." That doesn't mean the import is bad.
To the OP's question, I don't think simply slapping a corporate name on a headstock makes it the real deal. Also, brand names can suffer so much under new owners that they may no longer be the real deal even if they're still mde in the original country.
 
#67
nukes_da_bass said:
Ok, let me get this straight...
USA factory made is "the real deal".
Got it!
Japanese factory made (IMO) is BETTER.
So...
Japanese factory basses are BETTER THAN THE REAL DEAL!
Got it.
Click to expand...

No, you haven't "got it".

US factory made is the real deal. You have that part straight. But Japanese factory made is not better (your opinion is not based on reality), and is not the real deal. So, as a rule, Japanese basses are NOT better than the real deal. Now you can say you've "got it".
 
#68
smcd said:
No, you haven't "got it".

US factory made is the real deal. You have that part straight. But Japanese factory made is not better (your opinion is not based on reality), and is not the real deal. So, as a rule, Japanese basses are NOT better than the real deal. Now you can say you've "got it".
Click to expand...

By your logic, a warmoth is more "real" than an mim fender... Tell me if I'm reaching here...
 
#69
JoeVictim said:
What about an American bass with chinese components?

If the parts for the American bass are sourced from somewhere else, but still assembled in America, is it an "American" bass?

We all know that just about all electronics and plastics are coming from somewhere else these days. Wether it's the tone pot, the pickup cover, the magnet in the pickup, the plastic volume knob, the wiring... If you think your new American made Fender is truly 100% American, I got an all American motorcyle you can buy too.

Would a bass made from licensed Fender parts, still be a Fender bass if it was built by a random person?
Click to expand...

Do you know where all the components are sourced for all US guitar manufacturers? If so, provide some solid details. Many, including me, would find that interesting.

But you don't know anything about that, of course. This is not that complicated. You don't need to examine where the pickguard screws are machined to try to make an opposite point. When speaking of a distinctly American product, US factory made is the real deal.
 
#71
To me it's not so much about where it's made, but how it's made.

I definitely am attracted to 'boutique basses', the idea of hand craftsmanship, rigorous quality control and rich sounding/looking woods is very appealing.

Right now, highly industrialized nations have economies that can facilitate these type of operations, but that may not always be the case. As an example I think most people agree that the over years Korean products have significantly improved; in-line with an expanding economy. It's certainly plausible that Korea might be in a place in the near future to have it's own boutique line. I'd be interested to try any instrument that claimed to be built with rigorous care and expert craftsmanship.


As it stands, it's primarily Western nations like Germany, Canada and the US that have strong footholds in boutique-type basses. This bodes well for the companies, as even if new builders pop-up else where in the world, they have the not so tangible advantage of reputation and the very real advantage of years of experience. None the less, the possibility remains that high-quality products could come from less-traditional sources. Technique and craftsmanship are certainly communicable.


Less philosophically, my German Warwick really feel like something quite finely-crafted. I dunno **** about wood/mechanical/electronic working, but I can usually tell if something has had a lot of labor put into it and also has used finer quality materials, I think we all can. You don't have to be an expert, well-built products from quality material tend to feel well-built and the quality materials sing through, whether it's a table, car or bass guitar. Quality materials are often smaller, but denser than their cheaper counterparts.

My German Warwick feels denser and more solidly built, than the formidable Korean Warwicks I've played. And the goes for Korean Warwicks when comparing them to Chinese. But hell, the Korean could be doing the high-end German line one day and would it be the real deal? Well if it's the same high-quality results, it's real enough for me.

Cheap(er) basses, wherever they're built, do feel a little less 'real' to me. Not that they are not legitimate instruments, but they are not the finely-crafted precisions tools I admire. I like my ATK300, it's real, just not really good. I feel as though the manufacturers of low-end instruments don't care about the instrument as much, and and it shows. But that is totally fine, because we all want different things from instruments. I want mine to be as responsive as possible, to 'talk' to me and glaringly reveal all my technical flaws. I haven't found a way to get that out of cheaper instruments. They're not less real, they're just less good.
 
#72
This is the most ridiculous thread I've seen on Talkbass in a while. It's jingoism for musicians, and more than that, appears nothing more than a petty form of self importance and ego gratification.

What is "real"? What does that even mean? Is a Music Man more real than a 69 Fender because Leo "made" it? Is an 87 G&L more real than either?

There isn't another industry that "copies" it's own product and brand the way musical instruments do. Why do you think that is? Which one is "real", a Lexus or a Camry? Neither, they are different products for different purposes.

What is inherently wrong with a builder wanting to provide a *quality* product that is accessible to more musicians? Hell, what's wrong with a company wanting to slap it's logo on a piece of plastic with painted on strings to make as much money as they can while they can?

Here's the bottom line: sneer at the "fake" Metros and Skylines and Combustions and Squiers... Without those brands, the walls of your local music store would look much different. For that matter, your ability to even buy those "real" instruments would be greatly reduced. The market isn't large enough to support all the builders out there if they only built $3,500 and up "real" instruments... For that matter, that "real" instrument would probably be even more expensive because builders can't subsidize their operations with product that actually MAKES money. That means they would close up shop or build bed frames. Where's your "real" instruments then?
 
#73
smcd said:
Do you know where all the components are sourced for all US guitar manufacturers? If so, provide some solid details. Many, including me, would find that interesting.

But you don't know anything about that, of course. This is not that complicated. You don't need to examine where the pickguard screws are machined to try to make an opposite point. When speaking of a distinctly American product, US factory made is the real deal.
Click to expand...

Thanks for putting all those words in my mouth. Yep, you know exactly what I do and don't know, right? :rollno:

You know as well as I do that these companies don't reveal much of that. If the public knows they aren't getting a 100% American instrument :eek:, they might not buy it.


What I know about from Fender
CTS pots come from Taiwan and Mexico.
Bridges and tuners are Gotoh MIJ, or Ping made in China or German Schallers.

What I know about from Rickenbacker.
CEO John Hall tries very hard to keep Rics as much USA made as possible, but he still has to use Japanese Gotoh and German Schaller tuners, and he uses Taiwanese CTS pots.

Maybe Fenders should say CIA, rather than MIA.

Not to mention that the wood is sourced too. I don't recall any rosewood farms, stateside. You might have to go back to '67 to find an "American" Fender. And even then, whose to say it's not Canadian maple? Answer that and stay fashionable.
 
#75
I am assuming that nameless USA builder was NOT Fodera, correct?

Jason

Baird6869 said:
As long as it plays well and sounds good and the company that makes them aren't idiots, i could care less about where it was made, who set it up or blessed it before shipping it to me.

I own and gig a Squier as well as a Fodera. Both are great in their own way. The Squier was $300 and mass produced and the Fodera.... Wasn't.:eek:

In fact, I would rather play my Squier than expensive and amazingly playable instruments from a certain famous (to remain nameless) USA builder due to their amazingly terrible customer service. I may not get to speak to the president of Fender if my Squier has a problem, but who cares?

I think some people care too much about where a bass was made (Sadowsky NYC vs. Metro is a great example) and other potentially meaningless variables.

Just IMO.
Click to expand...
 
#76
I'll take it on faith from the hundreds of TB members here that SWEAR that FMIC got its Shiite together since 2008 and they are once again fine instruments.
They are, however, not the "real thing".
They are licensed copies of the original "Leo Fender Designs".
Leo invented lots of instruments and founded several companies. IMO, FMIC hasn't been the "real deal" since Leo sold to CBS.
If we are strictly discussing "designed by Leo" here, then "built by Leo" is the true "real deal".
I love "designed by Leo" basses!!! I was a coffee table bass snob for years til about 3 years ago when I had a clone built of a Reggie Hamilton and now am once again a true believer in "Designed By Leo".
FMIC has changed hands at least twice since 1964. I don't drink that cool aid!
 
#77
funkyebk said:
This is the most ridiculous thread I've seen on Talkbass in a while. It's jingoism for musicians, and more than that, appears nothing more than a petty form of self importance and ego gratification.
Click to expand...


when i spend $1600 on a bass you better believe i'm paying for some petty self importance and ego gratification!


nukes_da_bass said:
I'll take it on faith from the hundreds of TB members here that SWEAR that FMIC got its Shiite together since 2008 and they are once again fine instruments.
They are, however, not the "real thing".
They are licensed copies of the original "Leo Fender Designs".
Leo invented lots of instruments and founded several companies. IMO, FMIC hasn't been the "real deal" since Leo sold to CBS.
If we are strictly discussing "designed by Leo" here, then "built by Leo" is the true "real deal".
I love "designed by Leo" basses!!! I was a coffee table bass snob for years til about 3 years ago when I had a clone built of a Reggie Hamilton and now am once again a true believer in "Designed By Leo".
FMIC has changed hands at least twice since 1964. I don't drink that cool aid!
Click to expand...


oh come on now, that's a little extreme. leo fender was in fact a mortal man, fated to die like the rest of us. he couldn't go on building guitars forever. we need to have faith that there are people who can carry on his work, and that "the real thing" can still be created, independently of its inventor. otherwise we're just stuck in the past, which is boring and depressing. it's not kool-aid, it's optimism supported by experience: having played pre-CBS fenders, i can honestly say that the new ones compare favorably and do deserve to be considered "real".
 
#78
IronLung1986 said:
when i spend $1600 on a bass you better believe i'm paying for some petty self importance and ego gratification!





oh come on now, that's a little extreme. leo fender was in fact a mortal man, fated to die like the rest of us. he couldn't go on building guitars forever. we need to have faith that there are people who can carry on his work, and that "the real thing" can still be created, independently of its inventor. otherwise we're just stuck in the past, which is boring and depressing. it's not kool-aid, it's optimism supported by experience: having played pre-CBS fenders, i can honestly say that the new ones compare favorably and do deserve to be considered "real".
Click to expand...

I do believe that accurate copies of Leo's designs are out here being built today! By Sadowsky, Nash, Kallas, Atkinson, and even FMIC.
This thread is "what is the real deal?" tho.
Only a "built by Leo" is a built by Leo. I think that level of A=A logic is irrefutable.
I'm sure however someone will refute it shortly LOL!
 
#80
Pet Sounds said:
I don't entirely agree with you, funkyebk, but you do make some good points. .
Click to expand...

Yes. Although the original question was more about "brand" name dilution, this discussion gets overlayed with the Leo Fender model of "authenticity" every time. The history of Leo Fender at Fender, Music Man, and G&L is well-documented, and although I'm a G&L fan, I have no pretenses that Leo himself ever "touched" any of my G&L's... at that point in his life, he may have just come in to work on Thursdays, shuffled a few papers in his office, and left to go play on his boat. His employees actually MADE my basses, same as today's 2013 G&L's.

I wonder if this "tied to a person" way of thinking will be applied to any other brands in the future. I know I'd rather have a Carl Thompson made by Carl (or at least under his supervision at his shop) right now than a "Carl Thompson by Samick" in twenty years after he's gone. But that's just my opinion.
 

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