The truth Wood resonance Build Ect.

[Brad Johnson]

I am still going to set up a test and post it on-line.

Some where along the lines of, three basses,, with the same electric set-up, but different makes and construction materials, running through the same amp and cable.

And I bet my, and my mistresses silk underwear, nobody is going to be able to name the basses or material or construction!

Cool... what playback system will we all use to hear your test?



Remember when I said I've seen some players who can make anything sound like crap? I was serious. A recording is not going to do the trick IMO. The mindset that this is solely about picking construction items from a recording is frankly silly. When was the last time you heard a piano recording and thought it was an actual real life piano you were listening to (not a recording)?

 

[PaulMacCnj]

These arguements go on and on and on and... Oh well, they are entertaining at least.

I'm waiting for someone to say that they can tell a difference in sound depending on how the mains electricity was generated. There HAS to be a difference in sound between coal, nuke, hydro, windmill, solar panel, natural gas, etc., right?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Even if they don't say that, some people will think they did.

 

[relwof]

I am still going to set up a test and post it on-line.

Some where along the lines of, three basses,, with the same electric set-up, but different makes and construction materials, running through the same amp and cable.

And I bet my, and my mistresses silk underwear, nobody is going to be able to name the basses or material or construction!

What exactly are you are you trying to prove? If your premise is that given the same electronics/amp/etc the physical make and construction material don't impact the sound, that's simple to test. Take your three basses with the same electronics ON THE SAME SETTINGS and record the same thing three times on each - nine takes total. If the material doesn't matter, nobody will be able to figure out which take came from which bass.

OTOH, if anyone can correctly determine which three takes came from bass A, vs bass B, vs bass C, then obviously the material and construction have a noticeable impact on the sound.

Whether or not anyone can "name the basses or material or construction" used for each take is irrelevant if your premise is that there is no difference in the first place. The only thing that matters is whether they can tell the difference between the takes produced by the three basses.

So if you really think material and construction (bolt-on vs. neck through) don't matter, then give it a go. If you do, and you actually can produce decent recordings, I hope your mistress doesn't mind things a little drafty.

 

[relwof]

These arguements go on and on and on and... Oh well, they are entertaining at least.

I'm waiting for someone to say that they can tell a difference in sound depending on how the mains electricity was generated. There HAS to be a difference in sound between coal, nuke, hydro, windmill, solar panel, natural gas, etc., right?

c'mon, i thought EVERYONE knew that good ol' classic 60hz hums came in many flavors - coal's got that dirty, gritty thing going, hydro's smmmoooottthhhh, and nuke's HOT HOT HOT....

 

[mongo2]

I'm waiting for someone to say that they can tell a difference in sound depending on how the mains electricity was generated. There HAS to be a difference in sound between coal, nuke, hydro, windmill, solar panel, natural gas, etc., right?

Dooooood....DC's like the best.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I don't know... I've always found it sounded to direct to me.


*groan*

 

[MEKer]

...But basses aren't played unplugged, no one's using an unplugged sound. You DI basses or you run them through an amp (pickups and controls do their work) and instantly all these other factors effecting the sonic signature of an instrument come into play, much more so than the acoustic nature of an instrument (since the acoustic nature isn't being taken into effect, magnetic pickups are relating to the metal strings, not the wooden body there's even less of a chance of wood difference translating in an audible fashion) - so I find it really odd that people still think that wood plays a significant role outside of creating an instrument with longevity, solid build and great playability.

And there it is.

 

[Doctor J]

This might put an end to the speculation here, although it's for a guitar design by Uli Teuffel, it enables evaluation of the one thing this entire discussion has been missing, changing the wood while retaining the same instrument. Basically, isolating the wood as the resonating factor on an instrument, everything else remains the same. Does it make a difference? See for yourself. His Birdfish design has wooden resonating bars, maple and ash, to change the tone of the instrument. It's worth going through all the videos, very interesting stuff.

 

[mongo2]

This might put an end to the speculation here, although it's for a guitar design by Uli Teuffel, it enables evaluation of the one thing this entire discussion has been missing, changing the wood while retaining the same instrument. Basically, isolating the wood as the resonating factor on an instrument, everything else remains the same. Does it make a difference? See for yourself. His Birdfish design has wooden resonating bars, maple and ash, to change the tone of the instrument. It's worth going through all the videos, very interesting stuff.

I like it...plus it has a wood neck which will also determine much of its timbre and also be responsible for variations between production samples.

 

[Doctor J]

Plus it has a wood neck which will also determine much of its timbre and also be responsible for variations between production samples.

Doesn't really matter when you can test it with the same neck, the same body, the same electronics, strings and solder joins. If we're asking does wood make a difference to how the string vibrates between two points and, therefore, to what the pickup hears, the answer is yes.

Edit -> Of course, if you hear an instrument and can't tell what wood it's made out of through your ears alone, does it really matter?

 

[mongo2]

Doesn't really matter when you can test it with the same neck, the same body, the same electronics, strings and solder joins.

As I mentioned it matters when consideration tonal variations between production samples.

 

[Doctor J]

You think he'd mention that when talking about the tone of his instruments, but it would seem to suggest that the difference is audible between ash and maple tonebars, not so much between individual maple or ash samples. He doesn't, for example, offer matched pairs tonebars

 

[Gard]

This is the equivalent of arguing about politics or religion.



...if someone is convinced they KNOW, then they won't be unconvinced.


I have some pretty solid evidence on the topic (I have played ~1200 instruments with identical electronics installed in them, the only variation of note being the woods used in construction), and have a pretty valid opinion.

I'm not sharing it, because those that agree with my observations will just yell "See, I was right!", and those that disagree with them will yell "I don't believe you one bit, you were 'seeing with your eyes'!!!"...

...oh hell, I'm sharing it -

It ALL matters. Every bit of it.

Here is the REAL chain of tone production:

1) YOUR EARS AND MIND - you have to imagine the tone, and hear it in your mind's ear, then be able to match that vial your actual ear.

2) YOUR HANDS - your hands have to execute what your mind is telling them to do, accurately and clearly.

3) THE STRINGS THEMSELVES - your choice of strings will affect how everything on the instrument itself reacts.

4) THE WOODS IN THE INSTRUMENT - the vibration of the string is affected by the resonance of the woods in the body and neck - and MORE by the neck than anything else (a stiff, strong neck with a high resonance point that doesn't flex under pressure sounds better than one that does).

5) THE TYPE OF CONSTRUCTION - there are three primary methods of joining the neck and body, each has qualities that affect how the resonance of the instrument interacts with the vibrations of the string.

6) THE PICKUPS - they merely translate the vibration of the string (which is being modified by the resonance of the instrument - modified by the woods and construction method) from a mechanical energy to an electrical energy. They do this in several ways that can change how they do this, so they can indeed change the overall tone to a point, but they are working with the tone given by the interaction of the string/woods/construction method.

7) THE PREAMP - (if applicable), modifies the electronic signal produced by the pickups, and boosts it somewhat.

8) THE AMPLIFIER/PREAMPLIFIER - takes the signal from the output of the instrument, and with some potential modifications (both intentional and unintentional by the player) raises that signal first to a level necessary for the amplifier section to work with, then to a level appropriate to drive a

9) THE SPEAKER CABINET - a combination of both cabinet and speaker that work together to take the amplified signal and translate it from an electrical energy to a mechanical one.

Each element matters. Depending on the individual situation, they will matter more or less, but to the question at the heart of this discussion - the WOOD CHOICES MATTER.

I assure you, an ash bodied bass will have a different set of responses from an alder bodied bass which will be different from a mahogany bodied bass which will be different from a korina bodied bass which will be different from...then adding the top woods - if you have more than just a veneer - can have a varying affect....then the neck woods themselves, and how they are employed (which is an entire novel to discuss!), and even to a moderate extent the choice of fingerboard wood.

Think otherwise if you wish. I am not trying to convert anyone, nor am I trying to convert the converted. I am sharing my personal knowledge, based on a very large sampling in a very controlled environment (same room, same cable, same amplifier, same hands, same ears, over 1200 times). You can choose to discount my experience, ignore it, accept it, or whatever, it won't matter to me.

However, I daily get people that call me with questions relating to which woods will be the best to achieve a tone that they are trying to reach (and the best electronic choices as well, of course!), and when my suggestions (based on the experiences I've related above) are followed, I invariably get the results requested - and have it confirmed by the customer!

Is it magic? Am I a bull$4!7 artist?

I certainly don't think so, however, there are plenty of deluded prophets that believe what they are saying is the absolute truth...YMMV...IMHO...OMFGBBQ....caveat emptor....blah, blah, blah...

 

[Brad Johnson]

So are you saying electronics don't matter?

















juststayinginthespiritofthethread

 

[Meatrus]

That presumes that it actually takes much time to debate these positions. It doesn't. I guess if I typed slower...

I dont presume, nobody types that fast! Also the time is right there above and below your posts . It took you 9 mins from posting to editing post #107.... 9 mins just on the editing, so at least half an hour for the post? Wasted on an un provable point to someone who has their mind made up.

Ignore me, I'm just playing .

 

[Fuzzbass]

But basses aren't played unplugged, no one's using an unplugged sound. You DI basses or you run them through an amp (pickups and controls do their work) and instantly all these other factors effecting the sonic signature of an instrument come into play, much more so than the acoustic nature of an instrument (since the acoustic nature isn't being taken into effect, magnetic pickups are relating to the metal strings, not the wooden body there's even less of a chance of wood difference translating in an audible fashion) - so I find it really odd that people still think that wood plays a significant role outside of creating an instrument with longevity, solid build and great playability.

Very nicely said, and I agree up to a point. You explain perfectly why electric basses should not be referred to as acoustic instruments. Yes, they make a sound when not plugged in, but that sound isn't used for anything (perhaps in an oddball studio recording, but never live). What goes to the amp or the DI is the electrical signal generated by the vibration of the string within the magnetic (or optical!) field of the pickup.

That said, the behavior of the wood directly affects how the string vibrates within that field. So, I don't agree that wood has no effect on tone.

 

[mongo2]

You think he'd mention that when talking about the tone of his instruments, but it would seem to suggest that the difference is audible between ash and maple tonebars, not so much between individual maple or ash samples. He doesn't, for example, offer matched pairs tonebars

Yes that's a distinct possibility as would having different bars of the same wood that happen to sound different so you can mix and match.

 

[mongo2]

Yes, they make a sound when not plugged in, but that sound isn't used for anything

It's "used" by the pickups when the instrument is plugged in. The wood contibutes resonance and filtering that gives the strings a distinctive tone that's then transduced by the pickup.

How many times does someone here have to repeat that simple and obvious principle?

 

[Brad Johnson]

I dont presume, nobody types that fast! Also the time is right there above and below your posts . It took you 9 mins from posting to editing post #107.... 9 mins just on the editing, so at least half an hour for the post? Wasted on an un provable point to someone who has their mind made up.

Ignore me, I'm just playing .

And wasting time. OMG. Do you really think I'm trying to convince him of anything? I'm just goofing around between doing other stuff. Multitasking if you will.

I love this game. How fast do I type?


Hypothetically speaking, if I make a post at 10:00am, go make a phone call, check my IRL physical mailbox, play with the cat, come back and see something I want to add or correct in that post at 11:53, did I spend 53 minutes on that post? If I see a spelling mistake and correct it tomorrow, did I spend a day?

That's what your logic is saying.