Okay, to become a better songwriter (instrumentally, at least) I want to learn about theory, particularly, harmonies, chords (structure, progressions, etc.), keys, and especially modes. I saw this website that was like a "make-a-song" thing that you put in beats in the chorus/verse, etc. decided the key, and chose the mode. Anyway all the songs that came out sucked, but the "definitions" of the modes interested me (i.e. ionian-major, happy...phyrician-inciting anger, taming passion ... locrian-theoretical, unstable, rarely used). These definitions of all the modes (especially locrian) are all interesting, but I'm not sure exactly how to "learn" them and apply them effectivily... Any tips or suggestions?
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theory-modes
- Thread starter ARCtrooper225
- Start date
ARCtrooper225 said:
Chords and Complementary Scales
C Major...................Ionian (Diatonic Major), Lydian
C Minor...................Aeolian (Natural Minor), Dorian, Phrygian
C Sus 4...................Ionian, Mixolydian
C Major 6.................Ionian, Lydian
C Minor 6.................Dorian
C 7.........................Mixolydian, Locrian
C Major 7.................Ionian, Lydian
C Minor 7.................Aeolian, Dorian
Got these examples out of a scale and mode book endorsed by Pete Townsend. Some people may agree, or disagree with the chord and complementry scale, esp. the C7 -> Locrian.
My advice is to just learn them all and tinker around with them. Come up with your own definitions of how they sound to you, then incorporate them into your songs accordingly.
right up my ally!It was easy for me to think of the modes as scale steps.In C for example,C is ionian,D is dorian,E is phrygian,F is lydian,G is mixolydian,A is aeolian,B is locrian.So you could think of the scales as being from the major or key scale staring from different notes,ex C scale starting on D would be dorian.So the application would be to the corresponding chords,ex C maj-ionian,Dminor-Dorian and so forth.Of course once you learn the rules you need to learn how to break'em but I hope this is a start.
Alvaro Martín Gómez A.
TalkBass' resident Bongo + cowbell player
ajb2804 said:
That is correct and that's the typical way to approach the modes (like playing just white keys on the piano). But there's another approach to understanding modes that I've hardly seen discussed (and I think it's very enlightening as well). Right now it's complicated to explain it with words for me, but the following exercise will show my point:
It's clear that
C Ionian: C - D - E - F - G - A - B
OK. Now FILL IN THE BLANKS:
__ Ionian: __-C-__-__-__-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-C-__-__-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-C-__-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-__-C-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-__-__-C-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-__-__-__-C
Get it? I'm taking one single note (C, in this case) and I'm displacing it so it's a different step of another six Ionian scales. Which ones? No big news here for most of you, for sure, but anyway let me see your answers! Again, it's just another way (sort of backwards) to understand modes.
one way of thinking about the 'character' of modes is like this...
they are all similar to one other mode but with one of the intervals raised or lowered a semitone...
that's maybe a bit confusing, so i'll go into it a bit further...
if you start off with Lydian as your 'brightest' and 'most major' sounding mode, you lower one semitone (the 4th) and get Ionian mode
if you take your Ionian mode, and lower the interval a 4th above the one you just lowered, (i.e. the 7th) you get Mixolydian mode
if you take your Mixolydian mode, and lower the interval a 4th above the one you just lowered, (i.e. the 3rd) you get Dorian mode
if you take your Dorian mode, and lower the interval a 4th above the one you just lowered, (i.e. the 6th) you get Aeolian mode
etc... (eventually you end up lowering the root of Locrian to get Lydian on the lowered root, and the whole thing starts again)
so, the modes can be though of as alterations of a previous mode, by one semitone... this alters the character of the modes gradually, and by lowering semitones you generally make them sound darker & more spooky because you're adding 'minor-ness' to them.. which is the best way I can think of to put it
they are all similar to one other mode but with one of the intervals raised or lowered a semitone...
that's maybe a bit confusing, so i'll go into it a bit further...
if you start off with Lydian as your 'brightest' and 'most major' sounding mode, you lower one semitone (the 4th) and get Ionian mode
if you take your Ionian mode, and lower the interval a 4th above the one you just lowered, (i.e. the 7th) you get Mixolydian mode
if you take your Mixolydian mode, and lower the interval a 4th above the one you just lowered, (i.e. the 3rd) you get Dorian mode
if you take your Dorian mode, and lower the interval a 4th above the one you just lowered, (i.e. the 6th) you get Aeolian mode
etc... (eventually you end up lowering the root of Locrian to get Lydian on the lowered root, and the whole thing starts again)
so, the modes can be though of as alterations of a previous mode, by one semitone... this alters the character of the modes gradually, and by lowering semitones you generally make them sound darker & more spooky because you're adding 'minor-ness' to them.. which is the best way I can think of to put it
Alvaro Martín Gómez A. said:That is correct and that's the typical way to approach the modes (like playing just white keys on the piano). But there's another approach to understanding modes that I've hardly seen discussed (and I think it's very enlightening as well). Right now it's complicated to explain it with words for me, but the following exercise will show my point:
It's clear that
C Ionian: C - D - E - F - G - A - B
OK. Now FILL IN THE BLANKS:
__ Ionian: __-C-__-__-__-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-C-__-__-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-C-__-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-__-C-__-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-__-__-C-__
__ Ionian: __-__-__-__-__-__-C
Get it? I'm taking one single note (C, in this case) and I'm displacing it so it's a different step of another six Ionian scales. Which ones? No big news here for most of you, for sure, but anyway let me see your answers! Again, it's just another way (sort of backwards) to understand modes.
That's interesting. I've never seen that exerecise before. It could be useful for helping people get free of the "degree of the major scale" approach, which IMO is kind of limiting.
To complement that, I also think it's useful to play all the modes from the same starting tone, for example:
C ionian: C D E F G A B C
C lydian: C D E F# G A B C
C mixolydian: C D E F G A Bb C
C dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C
C aeolian: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
C phrygian: C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
C locrian: C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Ok so what always gets me is, for example say your playing along with a song with a certain chord progression. For this question say you were soloing which would be generally be more involved than your run of the mill root note bass line. As the song progresses through the chords are you constantly changing modes to suit the chord thats being played at that time? So for example say you played the progression: C, F, Am, G, Would you be playing C ionian then switching to F Lydian then to A Aeolian Finally to G Mixalodian. Always staying in the same key.
Or is the use of the modes more like writing a chord progression based on a particular mode. So if you wrote a series of chords say G Dm F G you could say that the song is based around G mixalodian scale and use that.
Or do you get your list of chord then play the modes that are said to go with this particular chord and as the chord changes choose one of the modes that is said to work with that chord and so on. What gets me with this one when they say that for example ionian and mixalodian go with Csus4 do you play C ionian or C mixalonian, which would obviously lead to notes that would be outside the key with respect to the mixalodian. Or is it C ionian and G mixalodian? This example is just an expansion of my first one really.
So what is the correct way to use modes. (yes yes I know there's no "correct way" for anything in music) Are all my examples valid uses of the modes? Is there a general rule of thumb or accepted and taught way of using modes that I may or may not have mentioned above.
It would be really cool to finally put and end to this question for me
Or is the use of the modes more like writing a chord progression based on a particular mode. So if you wrote a series of chords say G Dm F G you could say that the song is based around G mixalodian scale and use that.
Or do you get your list of chord then play the modes that are said to go with this particular chord and as the chord changes choose one of the modes that is said to work with that chord and so on. What gets me with this one when they say that for example ionian and mixalodian go with Csus4 do you play C ionian or C mixalonian, which would obviously lead to notes that would be outside the key with respect to the mixalodian. Or is it C ionian and G mixalodian? This example is just an expansion of my first one really.
So what is the correct way to use modes. (yes yes I know there's no "correct way" for anything in music) Are all my examples valid uses of the modes? Is there a general rule of thumb or accepted and taught way of using modes that I may or may not have mentioned above.
It would be really cool to finally put and end to this question for me
Richard Lindsey said:
Richard I like this approach as well, but I typically teach starting with Lydian. I think the approach is just slightly more effective in terms of dissonance in a jazz setting. Ex. the 4 of ionian is not the friendliest of tones against a major 3. #4 is a little tastier and less dissonant.
The result is this
C #4
C
C b7
C b3b7
C b3b6b7
C b2b3b6b7
C b2b3b5b6b7
I have no issues playing the 4 if it is intended to build large amounts of tension. The parallel method used here is a good ear trainer imho because there is a change from each mode by one tone.
ii-v said:
That's cool too. I just start with the ionian because it's a starting point that's most familiar to most people. But the argument for starting with the lydian works too. Conceptually, it's actually a little neater, in that you're sort of going from the "sharpest" mode to the "flattest" mode, taking one more note down a half-step each time.
ARCtrooper225 said:
How to learn them
That is one of the reason I made that modal chord progression generator - to help me learn more about modes. What I had to do to make it work was learn what each modes 'interval' patter was, then go through each (non sharp/flat) key and apply the intervals.
Using the Phrygian mode:
Phrygian's 'home' key signature is E - in other words, if you start on E and play only the white keys. This gives you an interval patter of ( s T T T s T T )
NOW, if you apply the Phrygian mode (interval pattern) to D - meaning you start on D and apply sTTTsTT, you get D Eb F G A Bb C D - as your scale.
If you then take each tone of that scale and build the triads, you get, Dm Eb F Gm Adim Bb Cm Dm (and if you step up one more arpegiated step, many of those chords become 7 chords). [D, F, A, = Dm :: Eb, G, Bb, = EbMaj - and so on...]
I may be completely off-base in my methodology, but that is how the chord progressions and scales get generated based on a simple key and a mode in my little application.
The definitions came mostly from the Wikipedia - which has a boatload of information about the modes and music theory in general.
Here is the Modal Chord Progression Generator (the MCGP - cuz all great apps have acronyms)
A suggestion to get more 'useful' chord progressions out if it is to start with only one progression per bar. When you go with 1/bar or 2/bar, you are more likely to be able to evolve a line and make a connection between chords that sounds 'right'.
Also, you can edit the bars now - so if there are chords you don't like, change 'em or remove them altogether. You can also add repeat marks and annotate the bars as well (put messages under each bar). So you should be able to make some use of it as a creative exercise.
Some explanation on the 'make a song' app I made (Not being defensive here - I agree, most of the songs it 'generates' do 'suck' - however this post compells me to offer some insight into why I made it and what I expected from it)
So I added some explanation behind why it was made and what I use it for in my blog.
theshadow2001 said:
Well, opinions differ. My own feeling, these days, is that when you're playing in a musical context that clearly establishes a particular tonality or modality, thinking of what you're doing as changing modes every single chord is mostly a waste of time. Within a given key/modality, it makes more harmonic sense IMO, and is easier, to think of yourself as performing harmonic motion within one harmonic space. IOW, if you're playing C Am Dm G7, there's no real benefit, in terms of understanding or facility, to thinking of that as four different modes. Might as well think of it as I vi ii V7 within a single key, C--it's both simpler and more accurate. This is especially true IMO when the chords are going by fast. If, for example, you're playing those chords two to the measure at 250 bpm, you probably don't want to make things any more complicated than they have to be.
Of course, sometimes the key or modality changes within a given song. Even so, you can often find local "areas" of harmony that could be described by a single tonality. Say, you're puttering along in C Am Dm G7, when all of a sudden you hit Bm7b5 E7 Am. Now your underlying tonality is A minor (harmonic), and all three chords function in terms of Am. SO you don't need to think of yourself as playing first in four modes, and then in three more new modes--you can just think of going from C to A minor. Somewhere around here there's a sticky that addresses parent or blanket scales; Chris Fitzgerald wrote a lot of it, and it bears on what we're talking about.
The situation is sort of different when the chords don't have such a clear harmonic relation to each other. In some types of pieces, the chords almost seem to be each forming their own little harmonic world, without really establishing a strong sense of a single key or modality. In that kind of situation, going to a different mode for each chord may be the best way to deal.
The idea of playing the mode(s) that the chord supposedly determines is something you have to be careful with. For one thing, with most chords, more than one set of notes can be played over them. It's not as if you can just automatically assume you play a D dorian every time you see a Dm7 or a G mixolydian every time you see a G7. You have to look at your harmonic options in terms of where the chord is coming from, where it's going, and what it's doing while it's here. So in your example of Csus4, the question of which mode to use depends on what Csus4 happens to be doing in that context. If the Csus4 is happening in the context of a C major tonality, you might approach it one way; if it's happening in F major, its function will be different, and you might approach it another way.
There's much more to this stuff than I've indicated here, but this is probably enough, or more than enough, for starters.
I realize this rather windy answer doesn't give you as definite an answer as you want, but the thing is, I don't think your quesion is quite answerable as you posed it. At any rate, I hope some of this helps.
Alvaro Martín Gómez A. said:C Ionian: C - D - E - F - G - A - B
OK. Now FILL IN THE BLANKS:
Bb Ionian: Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A
Ab Ionian: Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G
Gb Ionian: Gb-Ab-Bb-Cb-Db-Eb-F
F Ionian: F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E
Eb Ionian: Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D
Db Ionian: Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C
Get it? I'm taking one single note (C, in this case) and I'm displacing it so it's a different step of another six Ionian scales. Which ones? No big news here for most of you, for sure, but anyway let me see your answers! Again, it's just another way (sort of backwards) to understand modes.
This is sort of how I approach modes...
If someone is talking to me about A mixolydian, I think in my head what is A the fifth of? (mix being the fifth mode, A is the fifth of D... the D triad being D F# A...)A being the fifth of D, I then spell it out... so A mixolydian would be A B C# D E F# G...
Make any sense? That's how I do it anyway, seems to work lightning quick for me, but you have to know those triads!!!!
shawn
Yes this is true and it's the way I would approach this chord progression. But it does discount one way how I thought the modes might work which is good. (except of course when you mention changing modes with chords that bear little harmonic relation to each other. Which might be one way of dealing with that situation but I was coming from the point of view of simpler chord progessions)Richard Lindsey said:
Yes another good point. Though I would understand that one chord wouldn't signify the rigid use of a mode that works with it.Richard Lindsey said:
Richard Lindsey said:
Your answer has indeed helped some. I suppose it was a bit premature to assume the modes could be unraveled in a single post. My question I suppose, was posed with little context, which I feel is something that would be needed to understand the modes better.
Could you (or anyone else) recommend some books that would delve into the matter more deeply. Preferbly something that doesn't delve right off the deep end but with more of a gentle learning curve.
As long as I have been playing the use of modes have been a mystery to me. All they were (and still are) are scales that I learn but don't really use. I suppose in the context of rock music which I more used to playing the modes don't often appear. But I would like to learn more
Well - aside from the technical application of modes, there is another way they can be used - as moods. That is way the app I made explains the 'mood' of the mode whenever I could find some description of what that mode's mood was.
For example; You want to write a song in A that has a middle-eastern mood or feel to it. The Phrygian mode's intervals could offer you insight into how you can achieve that feel based on the scale intervals and the chords that you can build from it. So in this case, the use of the mode has little to do with chords relationships to each other from one mode to the next - moreover it is a means to a mood based on the intervals and triads of the mode itself. If you want that song to evolve and take on an Irish folky flavor, then you may want to visit the Ionian, Dorian, Aeolian and Mixolydian modes... Understanding the scales (intervals) and chords from those scales can give you very useful tools in crafting songs.
So instead of the modes being used in comping chords (like in jazz) - you could use them in the construction of songs based on the feel or mood you want to elicit. Each mode offers you a 'color palette' to draw from that should help you achieve the flavor you are looking for.
For example; You want to write a song in A that has a middle-eastern mood or feel to it. The Phrygian mode's intervals could offer you insight into how you can achieve that feel based on the scale intervals and the chords that you can build from it. So in this case, the use of the mode has little to do with chords relationships to each other from one mode to the next - moreover it is a means to a mood based on the intervals and triads of the mode itself. If you want that song to evolve and take on an Irish folky flavor, then you may want to visit the Ionian, Dorian, Aeolian and Mixolydian modes... Understanding the scales (intervals) and chords from those scales can give you very useful tools in crafting songs.
So instead of the modes being used in comping chords (like in jazz) - you could use them in the construction of songs based on the feel or mood you want to elicit. Each mode offers you a 'color palette' to draw from that should help you achieve the flavor you are looking for.
theshadow2001 said:
Actually, modes appear in rock and folk music more than you would think. For example, if you have the progression, G F C, one way of navigating through it is to play G mixolydian and just emphasize different notes with different chords (because which each chord, different degrees of the mode will be the chord tones). Modes are really just the same things as scales fundamentally--just a set of notes at differing distances from a specified starting point, which set collectively conveys a distinct harmonic flavor.
There is some music that is more or less purely modal, where the mode *is* the fundamental harmony.
Sorry, I don't know of any good books, though I'm certain they exist. I just picked up what I know on street corners.
Kiwi Kid said:
dlloyd said:
Got it... Using the locrian mode would be a nice cheat to get the flavour of an altered dominant chord.
Instead of thinking of it as 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, it would work as 1, b2, #2, 4, b5, #5, b7. Tritone substitution and all that.
