Agreed that age can be part of the equation for me I'll be 44 this friday. I want to continue playing when & for however long I feel like, so if a thicker or wider neck seems to do the trick I'll listen to what my body tells me.
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Thick neck= less hand pain?
- Thread starter CM63
- Start date
I heard somewhere (maybe Billy Sheehan?) that in the long run it is best to have a neck that keep your hand in a more open position similiar to what it would be like not playing, as this reduced cramping and muscle damage later on.
Sounds plausible, and it means that a 'better' size is dependent on hand size, not a universal 'bigger necks are better' policy.
Sounds plausible, and it means that a 'better' size is dependent on hand size, not a universal 'bigger necks are better' policy.
It usually is technique related, but that is a wide brush as any single thing could be answered with "its technique related" but also vanity come into it.....so what are the parameters of correct technique and how does vanity affect it.
First off there is correct technique......i do accept that "each to their own" and "what ever works for you" are parameters, but if your parameters sound cool but give you problems then it is "wrong technique" by modern electric bass standards. It is a technique, it like asking me "how can i bang my head off a brick wall and not have it hurt"?
The simple answer is do not do it, but that does not account for the desire to bang the head....that part is the vanity. What you really want is for it to look like you are banging your head, so you have all the attributes associated with it for those watching, but not the pain or injury.
In days gone by with acoustic basses correct technique helped with the sound....electric basses have EQ suites, pedals, amps and cabs to sort out any problem with relating tone and timbre to technique.
So from me here are some points to consider;
What has the thumb got to do with anyones technique?
The thumb is one of the biggest red herrings in and technique related problems.
The thumb is not really needed, so it cannot present any real reason to being the source of a problem in a bad technique.
What it can be is an indicator of bad technique, such as pressure.
Too much pressure from the hand holding on to the neck will lead to thumb problems, so relieve the pressure and you relieve the problem.....therefore the thumb is not the issue, pressure is.
In a correct technique, the large knuckles at the base of the fingers should never really be in front of the neck for great lengths of time.
They should be in-line with the front of the neck, just under the front at best, this will allow the fingers to naturally have some curl and allow the tensions used in the fingers to load and travel centrally through the joints as they line up, not over them.
So imagine this, if you form a stack of coins all in line, then when you load pressure on and through them....and they will remain in form.
Move one or more out of line, add the same pressure and they will de-form. The coins will 'explode' to the side of the prominent de-formation.....it would be like trying to push a spring closed and not have its belly move out off line of you cannot apply even central pressure when doing it.
This is what happens when the fingers do not have the correct curl and are in the correct place relating to the front of the neck...the fretboard...see that fretboard edge as the line.
So if all fretboards are that line of origin for those big knuckles then no matter the thickness of the neck, the fingers will interact in the same way because the fingers are set to the front line of the neck not the back.
This means the thumbs role is to rest against the back of the neck, not try and hold on to it using the fingers as counter-pressure.
What is counter pressure?
Simply put, if you hold something between your fingers and thumb what is doing the work......do the fingers move to the thumb or does the thumb move to the fingers?
But if the fingers rest against the thumb then the only tensions and pressures are coming from the fingers...not the thumb.
So when you fret you use that tension and pressure to push on the string not hold the neck, or even help push the neck/fretboard/strings on to the fingers. The large forearm muscles provide the initial origin of movement, so flexion and extension or the fingers....not the smaller thumb group of muscles.
Now this is a general overview, some might say "wow you are taking it way to deep dude"..... but i am not the one posting with the problems.
All i am trying to do is make you aware of the parameters of technique so you can decide for yourself which one you want to use.
But if you will not change to a better design of bass suited to your hand size so you can have better technique by citing, "no i want to use this bass" then your vanity is getting to make the decisions, not technique.
What you want is to be able to play that bass, not be a bass player.
In those circumstances that sort of player will take the one single answer of 'do it your way' against 100 answers of 'change your bass or your technique'... because that's what their vanity wants to hear.
This is why instruments come in a variety of sizes and scales, because it is not a "one size fits all" situation because hands come in a variety of sizes and scales. Match the correct neck to the correct hand, use the correct technique and things will get better.....much much better.
If they do not then i would say the damage has been done and nothing short of stop playing with make the pain stop.
I, like many other long term players, 40+ years have never suffered the problems some new players describe or talk about, those that did have, made changes, those that did not....well its hard to cite them because they never really became serious players that have a good over all technique that addresses all the issues with being a good player
Again i point out, if they were serious about playing, then they would do what is best for them and their playing and not worry about how it looks, what other players can do, or put any worth on the instrument they choose to play other than it is the best one for their situation...that means they can use it pain free to play the music they play.
For me a neck that is to thick is as bad as one that is to thin in relation to a players technique when it comes to "of the peg' basses. A lot of players will find that their sizes fit them, but just as many may find they do not, so there has to be an understanding of your parameters.
So choosing an instrument is first and foremost about it being comfortable to play as well as wear, then you can look at colour, style etc as additional pluses rather than the main criteria for choice. Sound or tone.....well like i said your EQ suite, amp or cab can handle that side because you can change any or all of them.....you cannot change your hand size.
First off there is correct technique......i do accept that "each to their own" and "what ever works for you" are parameters, but if your parameters sound cool but give you problems then it is "wrong technique" by modern electric bass standards. It is a technique, it like asking me "how can i bang my head off a brick wall and not have it hurt"?
The simple answer is do not do it, but that does not account for the desire to bang the head....that part is the vanity. What you really want is for it to look like you are banging your head, so you have all the attributes associated with it for those watching, but not the pain or injury.
In days gone by with acoustic basses correct technique helped with the sound....electric basses have EQ suites, pedals, amps and cabs to sort out any problem with relating tone and timbre to technique.
So from me here are some points to consider;
What has the thumb got to do with anyones technique?
The thumb is one of the biggest red herrings in and technique related problems.
The thumb is not really needed, so it cannot present any real reason to being the source of a problem in a bad technique.
What it can be is an indicator of bad technique, such as pressure.
Too much pressure from the hand holding on to the neck will lead to thumb problems, so relieve the pressure and you relieve the problem.....therefore the thumb is not the issue, pressure is.
In a correct technique, the large knuckles at the base of the fingers should never really be in front of the neck for great lengths of time.
They should be in-line with the front of the neck, just under the front at best, this will allow the fingers to naturally have some curl and allow the tensions used in the fingers to load and travel centrally through the joints as they line up, not over them.
So imagine this, if you form a stack of coins all in line, then when you load pressure on and through them....and they will remain in form.
Move one or more out of line, add the same pressure and they will de-form. The coins will 'explode' to the side of the prominent de-formation.....it would be like trying to push a spring closed and not have its belly move out off line of you cannot apply even central pressure when doing it.
This is what happens when the fingers do not have the correct curl and are in the correct place relating to the front of the neck...the fretboard...see that fretboard edge as the line.
So if all fretboards are that line of origin for those big knuckles then no matter the thickness of the neck, the fingers will interact in the same way because the fingers are set to the front line of the neck not the back.
This means the thumbs role is to rest against the back of the neck, not try and hold on to it using the fingers as counter-pressure.
What is counter pressure?
Simply put, if you hold something between your fingers and thumb what is doing the work......do the fingers move to the thumb or does the thumb move to the fingers?
But if the fingers rest against the thumb then the only tensions and pressures are coming from the fingers...not the thumb.
So when you fret you use that tension and pressure to push on the string not hold the neck, or even help push the neck/fretboard/strings on to the fingers. The large forearm muscles provide the initial origin of movement, so flexion and extension or the fingers....not the smaller thumb group of muscles.
Now this is a general overview, some might say "wow you are taking it way to deep dude"..... but i am not the one posting with the problems.
All i am trying to do is make you aware of the parameters of technique so you can decide for yourself which one you want to use.
But if you will not change to a better design of bass suited to your hand size so you can have better technique by citing, "no i want to use this bass" then your vanity is getting to make the decisions, not technique.
What you want is to be able to play that bass, not be a bass player.
In those circumstances that sort of player will take the one single answer of 'do it your way' against 100 answers of 'change your bass or your technique'... because that's what their vanity wants to hear.
This is why instruments come in a variety of sizes and scales, because it is not a "one size fits all" situation because hands come in a variety of sizes and scales. Match the correct neck to the correct hand, use the correct technique and things will get better.....much much better.
If they do not then i would say the damage has been done and nothing short of stop playing with make the pain stop.
I, like many other long term players, 40+ years have never suffered the problems some new players describe or talk about, those that did have, made changes, those that did not....well its hard to cite them because they never really became serious players that have a good over all technique that addresses all the issues with being a good player
Again i point out, if they were serious about playing, then they would do what is best for them and their playing and not worry about how it looks, what other players can do, or put any worth on the instrument they choose to play other than it is the best one for their situation...that means they can use it pain free to play the music they play.
For me a neck that is to thick is as bad as one that is to thin in relation to a players technique when it comes to "of the peg' basses. A lot of players will find that their sizes fit them, but just as many may find they do not, so there has to be an understanding of your parameters.
So choosing an instrument is first and foremost about it being comfortable to play as well as wear, then you can look at colour, style etc as additional pluses rather than the main criteria for choice. Sound or tone.....well like i said your EQ suite, amp or cab can handle that side because you can change any or all of them.....you cannot change your hand size.
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
- 29,772
- 30,452
- Disclosures
- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
Thick neck= less hand pain?
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I find thinner necks = less pain. But your tendonitis may have nothing to do with bass playing and may be due to other activities.
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I find thinner necks = less pain. But your tendonitis may have nothing to do with bass playing and may be due to other activities.
Thanks!
I think the previous 7 years of not playing, then coming back and trying to play the fast runs I used too is the actual problem.
I am in the process of Un-learning some bad habits, and learning good ones.
The fatter neck ATK is helping, but not the total answer.
Awesome logical post Fergie, you should have been a scientist!
However, I do believe that a good player should be able to play well on any neck. Good technique should allow enough wiggle room to change a variable (neck thickness) without reaching the threshold of pain. Plenty of good players have been swapping basses for years and they played fine on all. Flea's got very small hands, has went from thick/wide necks to thin/short necks, all while digging in very hard, and he hasn't had any issues. There are infinitely more examples I'm sure.
However, I do believe that a good player should be able to play well on any neck. Good technique should allow enough wiggle room to change a variable (neck thickness) without reaching the threshold of pain. Plenty of good players have been swapping basses for years and they played fine on all. Flea's got very small hands, has went from thick/wide necks to thin/short necks, all while digging in very hard, and he hasn't had any issues. There are infinitely more examples I'm sure.
My short stubby fingers love slim necks. I happen to have slim and thicker necks it depends on my hands feel tells me what bass I play.
Great points, but the Flea example is a classic example of "not everthing you see and hear" may be actually happening. Sure bassists swap basses all the time, but what is going on?
Is it a stock bass, or has it been modified..can we trust what we see and hear because that falls into marketing, publicity, and duty of endorsee contract.
Check out the link below of me using my Rickenbacker, she gets lots of comments about her sound, even a few players who have used her on jam nights loved the feel.....so never mind what we think we see and hear going on.......how many things do not add up to me playing a "Ric with a pick", if anyone was watching from a far?
http://youtu.be/M2Wfhf10Fhg
The thing about playing injuries are as much psychological as physical for any player, the denial of it means it is not an issue for them do deal with now, but they will deal with it at some point. The Flea point is a moot one, because that point could all change if he does develop a problem later, or we find out he did have a problem and went quietly about correcting it and making things right.......this falls into the vanity use of trying to copy what works for another player......
LOL exactly, it looks like a Ric but only in shape. It is called a Retrovibe, it has Ric styling, but it has MM pups, bridge, and neck profile.
The EQ suite has been changed....as has all pots and switches, so it has nothing like even a stock Retrovibe has.
She looks like a Ric and that is all, she feels more like a MM Ray, even closer to a maple neck 57 P bass than she ever does a Ric.
She has passive switching, coil taping and phasing of the pups, so a bit more than a standard MM and way more than a standard Ric in that department.
Add to that the laminated pick use, and if anyone watching and liking what they hear thinking they can get those sounds from that style by using a Ric and a pick they are in for a shock because there is way more happening than meets the eye.....and that is my point.
My vanity was for a Jetglo Ric for a new band project, so visually a Ric was asked for, but everything else is for me as a Ric neck, bridge and pick up placement does not fit me as well as the MM or P bass.
Like i said i changed what i needed to suit me, and that is missed by many people.......they just see a Jetglo Ric and assume to hear one as well.....even those that have played her do not see she is not a Ric.....weird how the brain believes what the eyes presume to see.
She is an on-going up-grade with more being done when i get back from the States on May.....maybe an active suite will be added, but only time and playing will tell.
