Things that surprise you about other musicians...

[glocke1]

It's just about the Dunning-Kruger Syndrome again. Being puffed, inebriated, only magnifies the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Period. There's nothing else to it, than that form of congitive bias, in the end.

Dunning–Kruger effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a metacognitive inability of those of low ability to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their ability accurately. Their research also suggests corollaries: high-ability individuals may underestimate their relative competence and may erroneously assume that tasks which are easy for them are also easy for others*.


Dunning and Kruger have postulated that the effect is the result of internal illusion in those of low ability, and external misperception in those of high ability: "The miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others."

Now, close thread! We have got final explanation for just about any/every post here in this thread! Period!

So how do you explain the people who play inebriated who play well that way, and have the chops to do so?

 

[glocke1]

If you tune by ear at home, that's great. If you tune by ear at a performance, I don't want to work with you. Nobody should ever hear you tune. You use a tuner so that you can tune SILENTLY. Should you be able to tune by ear? Probably. Are you a better musician because you can do it? Probably not.

What fails to surprise me, but should, is how many "musicians" think they are superior to other musicians because they do things differently than those other musicians, in a field where "better" is completely subjective.

I get very, very tired of other people, and to play successfully, you need other people. Fortunately, out there in the world there are the RIGHT other people.

I don't think I ever said "tune by ear onstage"...

Also....I strongly disagree with you. If you are unable to tune your instrument by ear, that to me tells me that you lack the ability to discern a "right note from a wrong note".

I'll even go out on a limb and say guys that know how to tune by ear are better musicians than those who can't..

 

[Honch]

So how do you explain the people who play inebriated who play well that way, and have the chops to do so?

!??!
I have yet to hear anyone, provided if I can make that A/B comparison from the very same people playing sober. Even if it's a double blind test. I e I don't know which is which from a tape recording or a recording. Video would spoil it. Even if they play "well" inebriated, they play better sober. Believe me. There may very well be such persons, but I have personally yet to play with one, and I won't waste my time finding one. There are of course numerous famous bands, and hard rock and acid space rock legendary musicians that have played and toured way inebrieated, and they while they've played "well", they have gone into the rut sooner. I haven't found out, that they have some sort of more open imagination and came up with NEW things they haven't played before either, in spite of their actual feel or technique is the same.

 

[glocke1]

!??!
I have yet to hear anyone, provided if I can make that A/B comparison from the very same people playing sober. Even if it's a double blind test. I e I don't know which is which from a tape recording or a recording. Video would spoil it. Even if they play "well" inebriated, they play better sober. Believe me. There may very well be such persons, but I have personally yet to play with one, and I won't waste my time finding one. There are of course numerous famous bands, and hard rock and acid space rock legendary musicians that have played and toured way inebrieated, and they while they've played "well", they have gone into the rut sooner. I haven't found out, that they have some sort of more open imagination and came up with NEW things they haven't played before either, in spite of their actual feel or technique is the same.

Ever listen to the Grateful Dead, or half the bands from the 70's?

 

[Axstar]

Ever listen to the Grateful Dead, or half the bands from the 70's?

I think they had a very very charmed existence. No touring band can be afforded the same luxury today, and I cannot think of a modern act on the Dead's scale of popularity that have such an unquestioningly loyal fanbase.

 

[Matthew Fisher]

You're right. Original comment edited accordingly.

It's called Roman numeral analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I prefer writing Roman numerals because it can indicate major or minor chords faster, esp in Jazz tunes, as it looks messy & confusing.

For Standard Four-chord pop songs either way works fine.

Thanks for finding that reference!

 

[Neon Blues]

I am always surprised by the number of guitarists that don't know what note/chord they are playing and just rely on the rest of the band to figure it out.

 

[Woolber]

Yeah I'm that guy...I don't claim to play better stoned, but I do find that the experience of playing is just better and more interesting for me if I've puffed before hand.

This is one of the problems. I don't doubt your statement is true. By making it about your internal experience, you've hampered the interaction with the other musicians and the audience which IMO eliminates the potential for musical greatness.

 

[Honch]

I don't think I ever said "tune by ear onstage"...

Also....I strongly disagree with you. If you are unable to tune your instrument by ear, that to me tells me that you lack the ability to discern a "right note from a wrong note".

I'll even go out on a limb and say guys that know how to tune by ear are better musicians than those who can't..

It works two ways. I don't want to hear anyone tune up on stage, by ear not even myself. The other should not cancel the other one out. You should be able to do both. Don't STRUT and BRAG and say that you MUST TUNE BY EAR prior to any song. The audience don't want to hear it, I don't. However, when sharing the stage with acoustic instruments that can't be tuned, you must tune by ear, or adjust your tuning apparatus to that one. Say, ANY acoustic piano, or grand piano, or vibraphone, marimba or such instruments which I've played to. If a vibraphone or marimba clashes with the acoustic piano then you're up in sh*t creek. You can't do anything to those on the spot, but if you know this in advance to the gig, you'd better check out the pianos tuning first. But if all else fails, you tune up to the piano and you just have to do that by ear.

The thing is, WHEN YOU PLAY you should be aware of that YOUR instrument can go out of tune while playing, AND ADJUST IT WHILE YOU'RE PLAYING. And if you can't, do not carry on playing, shut the f up and reach for your tuner, and tune silently and let the others of the band carry on playing. If it happens during a solo, and ONE string goes otu of tune, try - on the spot - to carry on the solo ELSEWHERE on the guitar, otherwise turn silent. If I discovers on bass, it's no big deal shifting positions, since very rarely a bass goes out of tune during a song, I've taken care of this beforehand to make tuning stable. I even get picky that if I use a drop D tuning, in one song, I discovers that after a while the drop D starts to drift upwards again, during the song, and goes slightly out of tune. I stop playing that string or reach for the tuner (on the haedstock that is) to fine tune it. It it goes to flat, I'll just bend the string a tiny bit when fretting to bring it up again. No big deal.

The limb you're going out to, I am with you. I would go out and say that people can't JAM WITH OTHERS if they can't tune by ear, or really, hear when they themselves or someone else is out of tune. Jamming requires a lot of hearing the others in the band. And react accordingly within a split second.

- - - -

The important thing here, is not being able or able to tune to ear, or without a tuner, but hearing WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING if you're going out of tune or not. If push comes to shove, all worlds famous guitarists, legendary have a pitch problem and not hearing whenever they BEND A NOTE while soloing they bend it up too sharp. All those legendarys, Clapton, Beck, Page. Only a few of the anglo-saxians hard rock guitarists, from the blues-rock school posesses this very rare treat. Believe it or not, but how much I dislike Yngwie Malmsteens music, persona, on stage antics, and playing style, I've never heard him bend pitch out of tune. Same with late Gary Moore, which was one that could play in tune. Peter Green had bends in tune, and on top of that could vibrate the note without going out of pitch. Jeff Beck not. The guys in Umprheys McGee - the kings of improvised rock these days - can't bend in tune, they bend up too sharp, especially when playing live. I've heard - even - Steve Vai do this early on. Eric Johnson not, Steve Morse not, and actually Ritchie Blackmore not. Robin Trower has these assets too, not bending too sharp. Slash definitely not. Sour all of the time. Jeff Healey could bend to kingdom come without ever going out of tune, as well as Dickey Betts. But the others, no matter how much their guitars were intonated and was in tune perfectly they could bend up strings and keep in tune.

And the younger guitarists learn from their licks today. Inebriated or not.

And we haven't even started to talk about gtrds who press too hard (brought up on acoustics) and press sideways some strings within a chord, just to get a firm grip of all frets on all strings. Occurs mostly on guitars with too low frets on. Sounds like torture to my ears, and it's no point in having to tune up any guitar at all in that case.

 

[glocke1]

This is one of the problems. I don't doubt your statement is true. By making it about your internal experience, you've hampered the interaction with the other musicians and the audience which IMO eliminates the potential for musical greatness.

I've thought about that...and I've honestly tried playing without puffing, but a large part of the reason I do that is stress induced....stressful day job means I need a way to relax and smoking herb is that way for me.

I don't do that with all the people I play with by the way, there are some groups Im in that it's frowned upon by the bandleader so I just cope the best I can.

Also, in some of these bands where puffing isn't allowed, the guys are drinking alcohol. I fail to see the diff.

 

[Honch]

Ever listen to the Grateful Dead, or half the bands from the 70's?

Oh yeah, I sure did. Remember the one marathon gig they played on Europe television, LIVE DIRECT BROADCAST where they took a long break between EACH of the songs,( jams) and tuned their guitars to tuners, took ages, like 4-5 minutes because they had these old tuners where you had to turn a knob for each one of the strings. And when they started to play, their guitars started to drift anyway during the course of the jams, and they didn't hear it. They didn't take these breaks, because of the commercials because there wasn't any.

Yeah, I sure have heard them. And they were immensely boring. I've heard much better jam bands. Allman Brothers, Little Feat for example.



Set 1, lasting 1:42



Set 2, lasting about the same. lame. nothing happens. at all. Doesn't really fly.

 

[Honch]

Also, in some of these bands where puffing isn't allowed, the guys are drinking alcohol. I fail to see the diff.

This I agree with you though. There shouldn't be ANY diff at all between the two. I think that is hypocrasy big time. I have no problems with people puffing/drinking after any gig, or whatever. Either you ban it all or you don't.

 

[Korladis]

I'm that guy...




Yeah I'm that guy...I don't claim to play better stoned, but I do find that the experience of playing is just better and more interesting for me if I've puffed before hand.

As for the bolded part about drummers...thats another thing. It also amazes me how many of these guys are out there that can't do anything other than basic beats. No fills or anything..

I write better stoned. I'm not as self-conscious about showing riffs to the band or experimenting with ideas.

Same reason some folk claim they drive better when they are high I suppose. Your senses are heightened and your brain is getting a flood of chemicals telling you that you are doing a good job. You've explored the ins and outs of that four-note turnaround you just played, to the nth degree, and you did good... just don't listen to the rehearsal tape afterwards and hear yourself plodding consistently behind the beat making clams galore. Or... listen to the rehearsal tape while high and appreciate the Escheresque job you did of playing over and around a fairly basic three-chord jam.

That's not really how it works. Also different chemicals do drastically different things to the brain. There's a huge difference between getting a buzz from a couple drinks/tokes (yes, alcohol is a drug; anyone who drinks any alcohol at shows but pooh poohs others for smoking a bowl at the same is a flaming hypocrite) and tripping out of your mind on hallucinogenic mushrooms while doing so.

At least with weed, I'm actually quite aware of how I'm playing, and also what my mental state is. This is an advantage it has over alcohol. I've also listened back to various recordings at shows of my band. The ones where we're a little stoned sound pretty good. Some of the worst ones were where we were rushed and didn't have time to relax with a bowl before going on.

If you tune by ear at home, that's great. If you tune by ear at a performance, I don't want to work with you. Nobody should ever hear you tune. You use a tuner so that you can tune SILENTLY. Should you be able to tune by ear? Probably. Are you a better musician because you can do it? Probably not.

What fails to surprise me, but should, is how many "musicians" think they are superior to other musicians because they do things differently than those other musicians, in a field where "better" is completely subjective.

I get very, very tired of other people, and to play successfully, you need other people. Fortunately, out there in the world there are the RIGHT other people.

While I think that it is important to train your ear so you can recognize when you're out of tune and in which direction, at a show, with the modern convenience of silent tuning, I don't want to be hearing people tuning unless they're on acoustic guitar, plugged straight into the PA.

This is one of the problems. I don't doubt your statement is true. By making it about your internal experience, you've hampered the interaction with the other musicians and the audience which IMO eliminates the potential for musical greatness.

Carlos Santana was at the peak of an acid trip when he performed at Woodstock in 1969. I don't think he "eliminated the potential for musical greatness." Did Bob Marley never make any good songs because he smoked ganja? The band Sleep always play while stoned. They're incredible live.

Playing music is all about the internal experience. If it wasn't fulfilling for me, I wouldn't do it. I don't do this for charity, or as a simple job (if all I cared about was money, I would have just gone into accounting). Beyond which, your assertion that a musician who has partaken in any substances has "hampered" their interaction with the other musicians and the audience is categorically false. In some cases

So yeah, I drink, and I smoke weed. Do I get absolutely blasted before playing? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. A couple drinks or a bowl isn't going to hurt, though. Cannabis tends to make one relaxed, and when you are relaxed, the performance comes easier.

Not your thing? Fine. But assuming that someone is a poor musician because they partake while you don't is a mistake.

 

[Korladis]

I've thought about that...and I've honestly tried playing without puffing, but a large part of the reason I do that is stress induced....stressful day job means I need a way to relax and smoking herb is that way for me.

I don't do that with all the people I play with by the way, there are some groups Im in that it's frowned upon by the bandleader so I just cope the best I can.

Also, in some of these bands where puffing isn't allowed, the guys are drinking alcohol. I fail to see the diff.

Precisely. After load-in I like to relax before playing.

And yeah, they're kidding themselves if they think alcohol isn't a drug as much as cannabis is.

 

[Axstar]

(yes, alcohol is a drug; anyone who drinks any alcohol at shows but pooh poohs others for smoking a bowl at the same is a flaming hypocrite).

Cheers for that, Captain Obvious. One of the reasons I find stoners so tedious is because conversation always goes back to the same things:

1) But alcohol is a drug too!

2) Hemp was only banned because of the influence of pesky industrialists!

Bunch of broken records, the lot of ye.

 

[Honch]

I am always surprised by the number of guitarists that don't know what note/chord they are playing and just rely on the rest of the band to figure it out.

Even Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree is like that, still after all these years.

 

[Neon Blues]

Even Steven Wilson of Porcupine Tree is like that, still after all these years.

For the sake of "Start of Something Beautiful", I will let it slide.

 

[Honch]

Look, there's another thread about "musician that are jerks". I've worked with a local promoter who booked all major gigs in the 70s 80s around here. HUGE acts. Now, the ones that he always refrained to book, was the reggae acts. They were always late, and didn't show up or even had to cancel the gigs because they couldn't find the airport or the venue. And the record companies were mad at them, so they weren't touring the circuit at all. All due to the weed, and nothing else. They didn't have to use smoke machines on stage, with dry ice...they provided it anyway.

 

[Korladis]

Cheers for that, Captain Obvious. One of the reasons I find stoners so tedious is because conversation always goes back to the same things:

1) But alcohol is a drug too!

2) Hemp was only banned because of the influence of pesky industrialists!

Bunch of broken records, the lot of ye.

I never mentioned industrialists, so I'm not sure why you are. I'm not sure who was behind cannabis being banned. Maybe the same people who wanted prohibition. Nor am I talking about the legal status of cannabis, as this is an international site and the laws vary widely on that subject. Also politics discussions are banned on this site outside certain areas (which this isn't part of). I'm talking about it strictly from the point of view of mental effects.

There's no reason to be condescending.

Factually, alcohol is a mind-altering substance. The same as THC, LSD, any other drug you'd care to name.

Maybe it's tedious to repeat, but it bears repeating since people so often draw a false distinction. Yes, those who consume cannabis may frequently, especially when others are saying bad things about them, point out that alcohol, enjoyed by most people, is also a drug (if we are defining drugs as mind-altering substances). They're not wrong.

You don't consume cannabis? Great, do whatever works for you. But don't harp on those who do if you consume alcohol.

 

[Neon Blues]

Wow, seems to me like some people need to light up a doobie and chill the $#^% out.