Thought Process When Changing Chords on the Fly

[Lobster11]

So, how do you handle an improv jam session? (just a curious question)

Fortunately I've only had this happen once at a jam session, with a bunch of much-younger players who lived in a different musical world than I did. They called a song I'd never heard of -- I didn't even know what genre it was -- so I asked if we could skip this one and move onto something that I knew. They said no and gave me a chord chart to follow, which would have been fine if I had even the slightest clue what the song was supposed to sound like. At their insistence I gave it a try and did just what I said in my previous post: I sat out most of the first verse, and then played a simple roots-only line throughout. I thought it sounded terrible but was relieved to have survived it. Then the next song they called was equally known to me. There was another (younger) bass player in the room who knew all this stuff, so I just let him take over the bass seat and left. I was clearly at the wrong jam session.

(Almost) all of the other jam sessions I've been to have been blues-based, and either I knew the songs that were called or was given some quick instructions, e.g. "upbeat shuffle in A with a V-IV-I-V turnaround." That was plenty to send me off to the races.

I said "almost" above because I've also been to a couple of jam sessions that were "true" jam sessions, in the sense that everything was totally improvised -- no songs. That kind of jam is a totally different beast, as there is no "correct" bass line to replicate. Remind me to tell you a story....

 

[dreamadream99]

I seem to encounter two types of players:

1. The ones who know theory
   
2. The ones who play by ear.

Theory players rely upon rules and systems to determine which notes to play. These are largely based upon the key, and the chords (which may or may not be in the current key). Depending on your theoretical knowledge and abilities, you may fall anywhere between a dabbler who struggles and may be hit or miss, Or a theory guru who never makes a mistake because they know which notes will sound best before they start playing. Most reading theorists do not play well by ear.

People who play by ear also run the spectrum, and could be anywhere between trial and error hope for the best, to perfect listeners who never seem to hit a wrong note. Most ear players do not know or play well using notation or theory.

Then there are those rare geniuses who can do both. Theory and ear. They feel equally at home with notation and rules, or hearing the changes and playing them by ear or feel. They can either seamlessly switch between the two approaches, or they have developed a highly complex interwoven style over time, that incorporates both. These are the ones that seem to do no wrong. Not only do they know the rules and which notes to avoid, they also have ironclad ears which can savant-like predict The best note choices in real time.

I thought the four approaches in your post were rather astute. I would say that depending where you fall on the ear/theory spectrum will determine which approach you use successfully.

 

[mambo4]

Then there are those rare geniuses who can do both. Theory and ear

This is not at all rare in my experience
Almost without exception musicians I have played with who were strong in theory and notation also had fantastic ears. It think the idea that it needs to be one or the other is an obvious myth.

 

[the_Ryan]

I seem to encounter two types of players:

1. The ones who know theory
   
2. The ones who play by ear.

Theory players rely upon rules and systems to determine which notes to play. These are largely based upon the key, and the chords (which may or may not be in the current key). Depending on your theoretical knowledge and abilities, you may fall anywhere between a dabbler who struggles and may be hit or miss, Or a theory guru who never makes a mistake because they know which notes will sound best before they start playing. Most reading theorists do not play well by ear.

People who play by ear also run the spectrum, and could be anywhere between trial and error hope for the best, to perfect listeners who never seem to hit a wrong note. Most ear players do not know or play well using notation or theory.

Then there are those rare geniuses who can do both. Theory and ear. They feel equally at home with notation and rules, or hearing the changes and playing them by ear or feel. They can either seamlessly switch between the two approaches, or they have developed a highly complex interwoven style over time, that incorporates both. These are the ones that seem to do no wrong. Not only do they know the rules and which notes to avoid, they also have ironclad ears which can savant-like predict The best note choices in real time.

I thought the four approaches in your post were rather astute. I would say that depending where you fall on the ear/theory spectrum will determine which approach you use successfully.

Music theory isn’t really about rules (beyond how to read sheet music, I guess), it’s a descriptive practice that tries to explain why a composer, songwriter, or improviser made the choices they did.

For any musical tradition there are building blocks that serve as sort of a common language, and in my opinion music theory is about communicating those to give one a better understanding of the tradition: sometimes it’s communicated through notation and analysis, but in some traditions those ideas are communicated purely aurally by being surrounded by the music of that tradition. Also, a type of theory/analysis that describes one tradition will not necessarily apply to another: the blues is probably the foundation of all modern pop music, but trying to analyze a blues song in the same manner you would a Mozart piece is a fool’s errand because blues doesn’t conform to those conventions. Also, I think something that gets lost when talking about music theory is that it’s kind of about being able to put into words and/or notation what is being heard.

 

[the_Ryan]

This is not at all rare in my experience
Almost without exception musicians I have played with who were strong in theory and notation also had fantastic ears. It think the idea that it needs to be one or the other is an obvious myth.

I dunno if the people you’re talking about went to music school, but in most programs ear training is a huge part of the curriculum.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm, kind of, confused.
Is it about playing "SOLO/Improvisation" or creating a comping bass-line for a melodic song that includes C - Dmin chord progression?
"You want to improvise with a tasty fill and then be ready for the following chords..." - are we talking about a bass-line or about NOODLING during the song?

"If you have all 11 intervals (The root plus every other note) clearly in your head and under your fingers then you have unlimited possibilities." I'm kind of lost with THAT KIND OF attitude towards the comping BASS-LINE for a melodic song.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

For any musical tradition there are building blocks that serve as sort of a common language, and in my opinion music theory is about communicating those to give one a better understanding of the tradition: sometimes it’s communicated through notation and analysis, but in some traditions those ideas are communicated purely aurally by being surrounded by the music of that tradition.

There is one thing that I've noticed at TB.
The bass players talk about almost EVERYTHING that is, kind of, linked to the bass-line, but it's so difficult to find a thread where the bass players talk about CREATING a bass-line - the bread and butter of any bass player.

 

[Govner22]

Thanks for all the helpful replies! My original question may not have been perfectly phrased, but as I hoped you got the idea and filled in the gaps with information I’ll be reviewing for quite a while. Happy practicing!

 

[Lobster11]

There is one thing that I've noticed at TB.
The bass players talk about almost EVERYTHING that is, kind of, linked to the bass-line, but it's so difficult to find a thread where the bass players talk about CREATING a bass-line - the bread and butter of any bass player.

I wonder if this is because most of the people participating in those discussions play in cover or tribute bands, or just play along to recordings at home, so creating bass lines isn't actually their "bread and butter." I don't know whether that's true or not, but I'd bet there is more discussion of creating bass lines over on the DB side.

 

[Govner22]

There is one thing that I've noticed at TB.
The bass players talk about almost EVERYTHING that is, kind of, linked to the bass-line, but it's so difficult to find a thread where the bass players talk about CREATING a bass-line - the bread and butter of any bass player.

Thanks for this question which I just happened to see.

I’m looking for advice in doing a bit of composition either onstage or during practice where I drop in a fill or a couple of cool sounding notes. I’m in several bands at the moment and find that I’m at the point where I want to be true to an original bass line but I don’t want every note scripted before the gig.

 

[Pacman]

Let’s say a melodic song in the key of C major has been put in front of you for the first time. The chord changes from C to Dm. You want to improvise with a tasty fill and then be ready for the following chords, let’s say F then G. What is your thought process? Some possibilities

My first question would be "why do I want to play a tasty fill there when I haven't heard the song? What is the melody doing there? Will someone *else* be also trying to do a tasty fill? What is the melody doing there? What would it sound like with space? What is the melody doing there?

Then I'd probably think about how I could honor the melody and make the entire song sound better?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I drop in a fill or a couple of cool sounding notes.

We are in constant need to "invent/find" a "couple of cool sounding notes."
Not too much, just a couple of cool sounding notes.

After many years of playing, I really know how to noodle, but...
I've totally acknowledged that my ability to add "noodling" is
as something like "parasitic words or phrases" - to be perceived as a sign of immaturity of a bass player (or any musician).
Those "parasitic words or phrases" start annoying me.

 

[Govner22]

My first question would be "why do I want to play a tasty fill there when I haven't heard the song? What is the melody doing there? Will someone *else* be also trying to do a tasty fill? What is the melody doing there? What would it sound like with space? What is the melody doing there?

Then I'd probably think about how I could honor the melody and make the entire song sound better?

Thanks, good info. My question is better stated in post #30. I know the song and the bass line and now would like to tastefully add something to it. Playing gets a bit tedious for me if all my notes are scripted in advance.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I’m in several bands at the moment

You are in several bands - a different repertoire, maybe even different styles, different musicians, etc... - and you are worried about adding a "tasty fill" between C major and Dminor...

I don’t want every note scripted before the gig.

From my personal experience, sometimes I would have situations on stage, when I'm so happy to have (almost) every note written/transcribed.
(What I mean under that word, "Situations" - medical issues, personal issues, family issues, internal band issues, even sound/technical issues, etc., that could seriously affect your playing.)

Another important thing (somehow, we miss out it in our TB conversations) is creating music by performing it.
Playing music is not playing a recorded track over and over again.
Even if you play the same song in the same band, with the same musicians, each rendition becomes unique.
Each performance creates a new kind of environment (micro environment), a new micro-feel, etc...

now (I) would like to tastefully add something to it.

(We always use those expressions that sound right but could mean different things.
Tastefully, "serve the song," etc...)

Why do you think that you need to add something in that particular spot?

 

[albertus]

the easiest thing that can be done is apply Coltrane changes over one bar of C and play some arpegios in 16th's. so to go from C to Dm, you play Abmaj7 C7 Fmaj7 A7 and you are all set

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm confused.

So how about Let it Bleed by the Stones?

Albertus: "the easiest thing that can be done is apply Coltrane changes over one bar of C and play some arpegios in 16th's."

 

[Govner22]

I'm confused.

Guessing that’s humor. I laughed anyway.



Albertus: "the easiest thing that can be done is apply Coltrane changes over one bar of C and play some arpegios in 16th's."

 

[Govner22]

You are in several bands - a different repertoire, maybe even different styles, different musicians, etc... - and you are worried about adding a "tasty fill" between C major and Dminor...


From my personal experience, sometimes I would have situations on stage, when I'm so happy to have (almost) every note written/transcribed.
(What I mean under that word, "Situations" - medical issues, personal issues, family issues, internal band issues, even sound/technical issues, etc., that could seriously affect your playing.)

Another important thing (somehow, we miss out it in our TB conversations) is creating music by performing it.
Playing music is not playing a recorded track over and over again.
Even if you play the same song in the same band, with the same musicians, each rendition becomes unique.
Each performance creates a new kind of environment (micro environment), a new micro-feel, etc...



(We always use those expressions that sound right but could mean different things.
Tastefully, "serve the song," etc...)

Why do you think that you need to add something in that particular spot?

Let’s assume for the moment that it’s a wonderful time to add a nice fill to serve the song. How does your thought process work? It may vary with the song of course but are there some common themes? I feel I need more in my bag of tricks.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I need more in my bag of tricks.

All "tricks" start at home with your "homework" - listening with your bass, transcribing with your bass, exercising with your bass, even "properly" noodling with your bass, etc...
Let's stay with your mentioned song, "Let it Bleed."
I've attached two versions of that song - the original one, and the live one with Darryl Jones on the bass.
I've highlighted the bass part for our easy listening.
Listen and describe the bass line from the original band's recording and from the live version (kind of recent one.)
Do you hear the different approach to the bass part?
What are the difference between the original bass-line and the live one?
How are both bass players going through those simple chord changes?
Do you hear a lot of fill ins?
Do you hear any chromatics?
Etc...

Here is the original track:

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...4/?temp_hash=0398112f8e1dac400cf907795d411653


And here is the live version with Darryl Jones.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=0398112f8e1dac400cf907795d411653

 

[Govner22]

All "tricks" start at home with your "homework" - listening with your bass, transcribing with your bass, exercising with your bass, even "properly" noodling with your bass, etc...
Let's stay with your mentioned song, "Let it Bleed."
I've attached two versions of that song - the original one, and the live one with Darryl Jones on the bass.
I've highlighted the bass part for our easy listening.
Listen and describe the bass line from the original band's recording and from the live version (kind of recent one.)
Do you hear the different approach to the bass part?
What are the difference between the original bass-line and the live one?
How are both bass players going through those simple chord changes?
Do you hear a lot of fill ins?
Do you hear any chromatics?
Etc...

Here is the original track:

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...4/?temp_hash=0398112f8e1dac400cf907795d411653


And here is the live version with Darryl Jones.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...7/?temp_hash=0398112f8e1dac400cf907795d411653

Wow thanks for this. Bill Wyman’s line is more colorful and interesting IMHO, which is a bit surprising to me. (I never knew since he tends to be so low in the mix.) Now I’ll drill down on the “why”. Rhythmic variations seem to be a good “trick” in both versions.

It sounds like I should transcribe more, and not just understand from a theory perspective what they’re doing but make a record of what I’d incorporate so it goes into the bag of tricks. This would apply not just to fills but the lines themselves obviously. Thanks again for your patience as I hone in on what I’m trying to figure out. I’ll work on composing OP’s too!