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Double Bass Thumb Anchor

C

Cody Sisk

Jan 26, 2009
686
9
Lilburn, GA
Disclosures
Ronald Sachs Violins
#1
Greetings. Normally you'll find me hanging out in the Setup/Repair forum but I ventured over here to ask a question. I recently got a chance to meet Mr. Levinson here in Dallas and was inspired to pick up his book, School of Agility. I'm excited to be exploring new fingerings but I'm having trouble with the "plus signs".

I can't get a good tone with my anchored thumb, it just sounds awful. Where does one push down the string on the side of their thumb? The fleshy part of my thumb between the nail and the knuckle just doesn't get the string to the board to make good tone. I've been in the Simandl school too long. Using thumb in places other than harmonics is a new concept for me.

I've combed threads about this book but can't find the answer to this.. Can someone offer a solution or a link to a solution? Thanks!
 
#3
DallasStrings said:
I can't get a good tone with my anchored thumb, it just sounds awful. Where does one push down the string on the side of their thumb? The fleshy part of my thumb between the nail and the knuckle just doesn't get the string to the board to make good tone. I've been in the Simandl school too long. Using thumb in places other than harmonics is a new concept for me.
Click to expand...
Depending on the context, it could be anywhere from behind the first knuckle to the tip under the nail. Occasionally I might even use the pad of the thumb itself.

If I want a really solid contact, my default position is right on the side of the knuckle itself. I know some teachers do not recommend this, but it works well for me.

You will also need to find a way to transfer as much arm weight as possible into the thumb. For me, that involves raising the wrist slightly and leaning forward from the waist.
 
#6
+1 for the tape... you only need the pressure to build the callus, not the friction.

As for where... avoid putting pressure on the outside of the nail bed, after a while that will give you thumbnail problems. Similarly, avoid the joint capsule itself (although you will, because that hurts). Otherwise, wherever feels right, which will change according to the fingering for each passage.
 
#7
PaulCannon said:
If I want a really solid contact, my default position is right on the side of the knuckle itself. I know some teachers do not recommend this, but it works well for me.
Click to expand...

The main issue with using right on the side of the knuckle is that after many years of playing you can where down the ligaments. I used to do the same thing then I started using just in front of the knuckle. This has also helped me with some hand shape issues but that's a whole different topic.
 
#8
Paul Cannon and Cory Palmer have hinted at the other question to ask. Not just "Where do I press on my thumb?" but "How?" It should act as a "moveable nut", pressing as firmly as fingers do in neck positions.

Open out your hand, palm down, with widespread fingers and thumb bent back. Test the strength of your thumb with your other hand. Unless your hand is enormously powerful the thumb will be too weak to apply enough downward pressure to stop a clear note. Then tuck the base of your thumb under the palm by pushing it across your palm towards your little finger. This will brace and stiffen your thumb, giving enough strength to support the weight of your arm and then some. The thumb is still bent back and sticking out. Compare the difference in strengths.

Another benefit of tucking the thumb base under your palmis that it allows you to align Thumb - 1 - 2 - 3 nicely with bridged hand shape as you pass back and forwards between neck and thumb positions.

For me the side of the thumb at the base of the nail works best, both for alignment and lack of pain. Then again I don't have a big knobby knuckle.

Best wishes and happy experimenting!

DP
 
#9
I spoke to Mr. Levinson himself on the phone today and this is what he said. The thumb should be exactly perpendicular to the string and the placement is exactly in-between the knuckle and the base of the nailbed. If the knuckle were a circle, the string contacts the upper right quadrant of the knuckle. He also says to leave it there only long enough to play the note, then slide it up behind first finger as a reinforcement for the next note in thumb position. He also seconded what you guys mentioned, the callus will help after practicing a while. I think I'll man up and try it without the tape. No pain no gain! :D

Thanks everyone for your input.
 
#10
I disagree with the advice about moving your thumb... that's a great way of losing your position. Leave it in place, lightly, until it is time to change position, and then leave it in the new position. That's pretty much the principle of minimum movement, and aligns nicely with the Rabbath 'crab technique' idea.
 
#11
There are times when it is very useful to leave it in place, but you also need to be able to use the thumb as an independent finger. One of the great advantages of the thumb is its large range of motion compared to the other fingers. When used properly, you can easily eliminate a lot of shifts from your sound by expanding and contracting with the thumb, i.e crab technique. I think the key is to always use a finger as a reference point in thumb position. Often times your thumb can serve is that reference point, but if you want to move your thumb to hit a note, another finger will easily serve.
 
#13
Andrew McGregor said:
Agreed... the main point is, you always need a reference point, and only abandon one when you have another.
Click to expand...

I see your point but isn't muscle memory much the same even without your thumb as a reference point? I can do an octave shift from 1st finger A in 1st position up one octave without my thumb being in the equation. I've practiced the shift enough to land it every time.

Mr. Levinson also mentioned that he shifts in context to the music itself. This is why there are different fingerings for the same scale/arpeggio passages in this book. I can understand a fixed reference thumb for something such as the 4th movement of the Eccles Sonata. But is it always necessary to do?
 
#15
My understanding, which is quite likely to be false or confused, is that the thumb has the highest concentration of proprioceptors and kinesthetic receptors within the hand. In other words, your mind is more immediately aware of your thumb's position in relation to your body than the rest of your hand. This would explain why most methods consider thumb placement incredibly important in regards to playing in tune and muscular fretting.

I want to stress that I am in no way an anatomist and I really have no idea what I'm talking about. It would be nice if somebody with a medical background could paint a clearer picture.
 
#16
To follow up on that, here's a completely non-scientific experiment you can do.

Extend your arms out holding your hands two feet apart from each other. Point your index fingers at each other, close your eyes, and try to touch the tips of your index fingers together. Do that a few times, and see how successful you are. Now try it again with your thumbs.

I can't say if that will show you anything in particular. For me, I can get the thumbs dead-on with every try. I get the index fingers maybe one time out of five. Your results may vary.
 
#17
PaulCannon said:
My understanding, which is quite likely to be false or confused, is that the thumb has the highest concentration of proprioceptors and kinesthetic receptors within the hand. In other words, your mind is more immediately aware of your thumb's position in relation to your body than the rest of your hand.
Click to expand...
I don't have a medical background, but I make my living dealing to a significant degree with proprioception. Without disagreeing with you, I will say that most of the time, people's proprioceptive information is accurate. The problem is that as a consequence of habits of misuse of the body, the information is misinterpreted by the brain. It takes me about 15 seconds to prove to a new student that he doesn't know where he is in space.
As to the relative numbers of proprioceptors in the thumb and fingers, I don't know. The Alexander Technique improves proprioceptive and kinesthetic awareness. I did your test, and am able to touch the tips of any combination of fingers. But your premise may still be correct.
 
#18
I can sense the start of a new thread coming. "Why is the thumb so important in Thumb Position?", "The role of the Thumb in Thumb Position", or perhaps " How can we increase the Dexterity and Strength of the Thumb?"

The designer of the ape/human hand developed the thumb to oppose the fingers and created a power grip that could swing from branches/undo jar tops. The thumb was not designed for the purpose we bass players wish to use it.

The originator of this thread sought advice on how to produce a good sound with the side of his thumb and, as fascinating as the discussion has been evolving, is there any more help we can give him? I'm not trying to offend anyone or be a kill-joy!!

Cheers

DP
 
#19
David Potts said:
I can sense the start of a new thread coming. "Why is the thumb so important in Thumb Position?", "The role of the Thumb in Thumb Position", or perhaps " How can we increase the Dexterity and Strength of the Thumb?"

The designer of the ape/human hand developed the thumb to oppose the fingers and created a power grip that could swing from branches/undo jar tops. The thumb was not designed for the purpose we bass players wish to use it.

The originator of this thread sought advice on how to produce a good sound with the side of his thumb and, as fascinating as the discussion has been evolving, is there any more help we can give him? I'm not trying to offend anyone or be a kill-joy!!
Click to expand...
The OP also mentioned moving the thumb out of position to reinforce other fingers when not in use. My last two posts were addressing that.

Of course our anatomy has not evolved to suit our needs as bass players, but understanding that anatomy on some level is still valuable information. It's all directly related to the topic at hand.
 
#20
I think the main thing with the thumb is that it's just another finger... but one you probably haven't used for playing much, and now you're doing the beginner pain thing all over again. The same principle applies, though, in that you're trying to drop the weight of your arm, pivoting from a free shoulder, through the contact point. That's a LOT of force, and is going to hurt for a while, but is also necessary to get a good tone. You have to build up to it, but if you tape your thumb you should at least hear the beginnings of the tone.
 

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