Hi- I`m a german bow player that would like to switch to french. I`m 5`6" and due to the length of my arm the french goes better with the height of my bass. The endpin is set at where I like for pizz and I sort of have to lean with the german to keep it level. The french alleviates this but I can`t seem to get through 8 bars of Canon in D without pain in the large muscle of my thumb. I`ve looked at the Anderson videos and various others to make sure I have good bow hold. Can`t afford a teacher right now---anybody have any ideas?
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Double Bass Thumb Pain Fom French Bow
- Thread starter basscat35
- Start date
Your thumbs are kind of short relative to your fingers, yes? Mine are very short, I had the same problem, and eventually concluded there was no answer. Maybe try to sort out a posture that works better with the German bow?
I expect some French bow experts to chip in shortly.
I expect some French bow experts to chip in shortly.
You don't need a death grip on your bow to get a big sound. You may be mistakenly tightening your grip to dig in and get a bigger sound, like you got from your german bow, but what really needs to happen is proper application of weight into the string.
Applying more weight into the string comes from your whole bowing arm, your back, and gravity, and each joint must remain flexible so the big muscles aren't doing all the work. You don't have to squeeze the bow to play loud. The fingers remain nimble and flexible to facilitate string crossing, the wrist is flexible to facilitate a smooth bow change, the weight comes from elsewhere.
Other considerations: Is your thumb collapsing? Has a serious French player examined your grip? If your grip is crap, you may be forced to work too hard in holding the bow and playing loudly.
Applying more weight into the string comes from your whole bowing arm, your back, and gravity, and each joint must remain flexible so the big muscles aren't doing all the work. You don't have to squeeze the bow to play loud. The fingers remain nimble and flexible to facilitate string crossing, the wrist is flexible to facilitate a smooth bow change, the weight comes from elsewhere.
Other considerations: Is your thumb collapsing? Has a serious French player examined your grip? If your grip is crap, you may be forced to work too hard in holding the bow and playing loudly.
Hey, Guy
I had the same problem, that is why I had to go over to German Bow years ago, but working now with my present teacher with the french bow, I am finding it is how you play you thumb, it is more like a hook and position problem of your right hand.
Try adjusting you bass, also if you take a look on how a violinist or celloist hold their bow that may help you, instead playing off your shoulder you are playing in front of yourself. Look Closely, also Freddrick Zimmerman Bowing Tech book can also help can you. look at some youtube videos that can help.
Also remember your Bow is at a 90 degree perpendicature to the strings.
Kirk
I had the same problem, that is why I had to go over to German Bow years ago, but working now with my present teacher with the french bow, I am finding it is how you play you thumb, it is more like a hook and position problem of your right hand.
Try adjusting you bass, also if you take a look on how a violinist or celloist hold their bow that may help you, instead playing off your shoulder you are playing in front of yourself. Look Closely, also Freddrick Zimmerman Bowing Tech book can also help can you. look at some youtube videos that can help.
Also remember your Bow is at a 90 degree perpendicature to the strings.
Kirk
It may be as simple as muscles that arent conditioned to using french bow. Does your thumb bend backwards when holding the bow? That will fatigue you very quickly.
Thanks everybody for the responses---my bow is perpendicular to the strings, I believe my thumb is bent correctly and that my hold is good. When times get better I should get a teacher to help with this. Any recommendations for a french bow teacher in northern NJ?
I had a few lessons with Jon Burr in yonkers. I've never had hand pain again. If I wasn't on the road I'd be back to lessons with him. He really helped me get rid of a lot of pain I was causing myself.
- Jan 24, 2002
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There are so many potential causes that I don't think it's possible to make an exhaustive list. It may be helpful if you posted pictures of your bow hold, and perhaps a short video. Still, the best way to resolve the issue is to find a qualified instructor, if only for one lesson.
I suspect it's likely you are squeezing your thumb or hand in some manner. Telling you not to squeeze is a bit meaningless, however. You need to find out WHY there is tension. It could be almost anything: your equipment, your posture, your bow hold, your anatomy, even a medical condition. Are you double jointed? Have you tried a rubber bow grip? Have you tried a different bow?
If you insist on (or must) continue without a teacher, start experimenting. There are so many variables at play, just start changing them until you find something that helps. Don't hurt yourself; I suggest you keep using your German bow for now while you search for a way to manage the French bow.
I suspect it's likely you are squeezing your thumb or hand in some manner. Telling you not to squeeze is a bit meaningless, however. You need to find out WHY there is tension. It could be almost anything: your equipment, your posture, your bow hold, your anatomy, even a medical condition. Are you double jointed? Have you tried a rubber bow grip? Have you tried a different bow?
If you insist on (or must) continue without a teacher, start experimenting. There are so many variables at play, just start changing them until you find something that helps. Don't hurt yourself; I suggest you keep using your German bow for now while you search for a way to manage the French bow.
Bent thumb!
Extend 1st finger (or 1st and 2nd finger) further up the stick!
Relax your wrist!
Release the bow presure slightly after the initial attack!
Feel the bow speed to be appropriate!
If you still hurt after following these tips after six months then it's something else.
I tried German Bow exclusively for a year about 18 years ago and only after 12 months of really trying did I finally decide that it wasn't for me and spent another 6 months getting back to where I was with the French bow before that!
F
Extend 1st finger (or 1st and 2nd finger) further up the stick!
Relax your wrist!
Release the bow presure slightly after the initial attack!
Feel the bow speed to be appropriate!
If you still hurt after following these tips after six months then it's something else.
I tried German Bow exclusively for a year about 18 years ago and only after 12 months of really trying did I finally decide that it wasn't for me and spent another 6 months getting back to where I was with the French bow before that!
F
I have and use Brohan`s Oak, Pop`s and Kolstein All-Weather rosins.After reading everyone`s suggestions (thanks again) I have to conclude that there are so many variables and possibilities; some of which may be difficult to judge in oneself; I`ll have to get some lessons. Meanwhile I`ll still look into what was suggested.
I`m spending more time with the german--it`s pain-free--and somehow I think it`s improved because of the struggle with the french. (still want to learn french though)
I`m spending more time with the german--it`s pain-free--and somehow I think it`s improved because of the struggle with the french. (still want to learn french though)
Steve Boisen started a thread on this topic on 01=01-2004. There may be others if you trawl back.
My post then may be of some help still?
FRENCH BOW HOLD TENSION
Since adopting these ideas years ago I have not suffered tiredness or pain in my bow hold or arm despite a full-time job in an orchestra.
When your hands hang loosely by your side they are cupped, with fingers and thumb bent. You only have to move your bent thumb across until it opposes your second finger and keep your fingers slightly separated to have the basis for a very relaxed French Bow hold.
Two things are important to me. Thumb opposes second finger and is bent, and little finger is bent. These keep your hand cupped, muscles in your thumb and heel of hand relaxed, and wrist free to rotate in any direction.
Try these tests for wrist freedom. (1) Press your index finger against your thumb and rotate your hand in all directions around your wrist - feel the tension and clicks in your wrist (2) repeat between little finger and wrist - worse tension (3) Now press between second finger and thumb _ tension disappears and wrist is free to rotate in any direction. You can press as hard as you like and the wrist is still free to move.
Try these tests for muscle relaxation. Keep your thumb and opposing fingers straight and push them together by bending the big knuckles together - your hand forms "Kermit the Frog" shape. Feel your big thumb muscle - it will be rock hard, so to will the heel muscles (like a karate chop). Now again cup your hand and oppose the second finger with the thumb (as in bowing) and test the muscles again - the muscles are now soft and flexible.
I see the French bow hold as a balancing act between leverage (how far ahead of the thumb the index finger advances) and comfort. If you strike the right sort of balance there is no need for muscle to tense and tire, giving that "red hot golf ball" pain in the big thumb muscles. You will have plenty of leverage for all but the heaviest of plying, when you can temporarily change anyway. Spread your fingers too far and your hand stiffens. Don't advance your index finger far enough and you work like a dog, causing your hand to stiffen! I like natural spacing between fingers, just as they are when your hand hangs loosely by your side.
I drop the above hand shape over the stick, looking for the front edge of the ferrule with my second finger and the front corner of the frog with the end of my thumb. Then my thumb opposes my second finger in the bow hold!! Also it won't slip off the corner. I could put my thumb in the corner between the end of the frog and the stick but pain is caused when flesh is trapped between nail and stick.
The thumb is the fulcrum around which the bow will rotate if it wasn't supported by the strings. I think of the first finger and thumb being a hook that transfers the weight of my arm to the string. If I turn in my arm carefully by rotating the right elbow (a hinge joint that only works in one direction) up and out slightly my elbow is free to move in the same direction as the bow and there is no conflict between weight and freedom of movement.
The fingers will point back slightly and the back of the hand is higher than the index finger (and the last pad of the little finger) is just hooked over the stick (not straight!!!) The hand is still cupped and thumb bent but turning the hand in has thrown weight forward into the string without distorting anything. Most of the bending of fingers is with the second line of knuckles to avoid "Kermit The Frog." The hand, side on, looks more like a snake's head.
Looking down your bow arm you should see a line of power going undisturbed from your shoulder to your index finger through a fairly straight wrist that shouldn't have to pronate too much. Play with a "long arm." (I too am short at 5' 7")
I use the above "package" of bow hold and arm set-up to connect my brain to the strings with as few "road blocks" as possible. Via Tom Martin the ideas come originally from a must-have still available book by William Pleeth, famous English Cello teacher, called "Cello" ( a paperback commissioned years ago by Yehudi Menuhin )
The key word to distill from the above blah blah is "alignments."
Best Wishes
DP
My post then may be of some help still?
FRENCH BOW HOLD TENSION
Since adopting these ideas years ago I have not suffered tiredness or pain in my bow hold or arm despite a full-time job in an orchestra.
When your hands hang loosely by your side they are cupped, with fingers and thumb bent. You only have to move your bent thumb across until it opposes your second finger and keep your fingers slightly separated to have the basis for a very relaxed French Bow hold.
Two things are important to me. Thumb opposes second finger and is bent, and little finger is bent. These keep your hand cupped, muscles in your thumb and heel of hand relaxed, and wrist free to rotate in any direction.
Try these tests for wrist freedom. (1) Press your index finger against your thumb and rotate your hand in all directions around your wrist - feel the tension and clicks in your wrist (2) repeat between little finger and wrist - worse tension (3) Now press between second finger and thumb _ tension disappears and wrist is free to rotate in any direction. You can press as hard as you like and the wrist is still free to move.
Try these tests for muscle relaxation. Keep your thumb and opposing fingers straight and push them together by bending the big knuckles together - your hand forms "Kermit the Frog" shape. Feel your big thumb muscle - it will be rock hard, so to will the heel muscles (like a karate chop). Now again cup your hand and oppose the second finger with the thumb (as in bowing) and test the muscles again - the muscles are now soft and flexible.
I see the French bow hold as a balancing act between leverage (how far ahead of the thumb the index finger advances) and comfort. If you strike the right sort of balance there is no need for muscle to tense and tire, giving that "red hot golf ball" pain in the big thumb muscles. You will have plenty of leverage for all but the heaviest of plying, when you can temporarily change anyway. Spread your fingers too far and your hand stiffens. Don't advance your index finger far enough and you work like a dog, causing your hand to stiffen! I like natural spacing between fingers, just as they are when your hand hangs loosely by your side.
I drop the above hand shape over the stick, looking for the front edge of the ferrule with my second finger and the front corner of the frog with the end of my thumb. Then my thumb opposes my second finger in the bow hold!! Also it won't slip off the corner. I could put my thumb in the corner between the end of the frog and the stick but pain is caused when flesh is trapped between nail and stick.
The thumb is the fulcrum around which the bow will rotate if it wasn't supported by the strings. I think of the first finger and thumb being a hook that transfers the weight of my arm to the string. If I turn in my arm carefully by rotating the right elbow (a hinge joint that only works in one direction) up and out slightly my elbow is free to move in the same direction as the bow and there is no conflict between weight and freedom of movement.
The fingers will point back slightly and the back of the hand is higher than the index finger (and the last pad of the little finger) is just hooked over the stick (not straight!!!) The hand is still cupped and thumb bent but turning the hand in has thrown weight forward into the string without distorting anything. Most of the bending of fingers is with the second line of knuckles to avoid "Kermit The Frog." The hand, side on, looks more like a snake's head.
Looking down your bow arm you should see a line of power going undisturbed from your shoulder to your index finger through a fairly straight wrist that shouldn't have to pronate too much. Play with a "long arm." (I too am short at 5' 7")
I use the above "package" of bow hold and arm set-up to connect my brain to the strings with as few "road blocks" as possible. Via Tom Martin the ideas come originally from a must-have still available book by William Pleeth, famous English Cello teacher, called "Cello" ( a paperback commissioned years ago by Yehudi Menuhin )
The key word to distill from the above blah blah is "alignments."
Best Wishes
DP
Relax the hand. If you are getting pain your gripping to tight. I have been working on this and it takes a lot of adjustment to relax your hand and pull a good sound, but it works. I am about 50/50 there with my bowing.
David Pott's post helped me, a total beginner learn to get rid of my thumb pain. Very good post!
It seems also besides being aware of where the tension is that playing too long in any one body position including the hand can cause pain. One way I discovered to deal with this especially when one must play for long periods of time (Beethoven 9, etc.) is to hold the bow various ways, i.e. thumb under the frog for heavy hammer strokes, in the curve of frog for heavier bow strokes, and a normal stick hold for lighter passages. When practicing also be aware of where tension is developing and relax that area. A good way to build that cognizance is to practice long bows and various bow articulation on the open strings and consciously recognize where tension is building and then figure out how to relax and still get a good sound. Every anatomy is different.
Hope that helps, it has helped me.
Hope that helps, it has helped me.
switching bows is throwing out the baby with the bathwater. you're having an issue holding the bass, not the bow, my friend.
ever wonder why cellists play sitting down?
because their instrument is so big.
buy a stool.
keep the German til you can find/afford a teacher.
ever wonder why cellists play sitting down?
because their instrument is so big.
buy a stool.
keep the German til you can find/afford a teacher.
I am not deriding the substance of your point, but viola players, violinists, flautists and piccoliers all sit down as well, and their instruments are very small.
my comment was demonstrative.
professional orchestras often require that the entire section sit, just like everyone else...
it seems that there are a multitude of problems including that of the OP that are easily solved by just sitting down.
the weight of the arm digs into the string more at a sharper angle
you don't have to bend your endpin
the pressure on the left thumb disappears
mobility across the entire instrument improves for many people
also, you can hide your phone behind your bass and play games during rests; the conductor will never know the difference.
professional orchestras often require that the entire section sit, just like everyone else...
it seems that there are a multitude of problems including that of the OP that are easily solved by just sitting down.
the weight of the arm digs into the string more at a sharper angle
you don't have to bend your endpin
the pressure on the left thumb disappears
mobility across the entire instrument improves for many people
also, you can hide your phone behind your bass and play games during rests; the conductor will never know the difference.
