Double Bass thumb position basics

[Scott Lynch]

I have noticed that my ring finger is flattening out when I play in thumb position, especially when I move from string to string. I imagine that playing up on the tip, instead of the pad, is a better idea.

Any tips for maintaining left hand posture?

 

[Tom Gale]

Believe it or not, the ring finger is the weakest of the the 4 fingers you use on the left hand - esp. if you are right handed. That's why the old system with heavy gut strings and high action combined it with the 4th to help it out.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

 

[Eric Swanson]

A teacher got me practicing double stops; alternating m3rds/P5ths, M3rds/b'd5ths, etc. as a way of ingraining the correct hand/finger spacing. He had me practicing both stationary double stops and shifting double stops, all up and down the fingerboard (shifting a 5th double stop while moving the hand/arm a m3rd, M3rd, or P4th, for example. This works both in the lower register and in thumb position to make intonation (within the hand position) automatic. Once the stationary double stops are "grooved," the shifting double stops help chill out shifting confindence.

When I started using the open hand fingering, I started practicing double stop combinations within that m3rd spacing (that the open hand or extended fingering provides; one finger per half step).

In thumb position, especially if you are using an open handed thumb position fingering (some combination of half and whole steps between fingers). the range of double stops gets pretty wide; from a perfect unison (hopefully ) to a m7th.

Anyway, I still use double stops every time I practice; for hand position, for strength building, and conceptually, because it helps me ignore the strings when I play single notes. Practicing double stops helps me focus on tapping into the fingerboard rather than worrying about string tension.

I don't know if any of this makes sense, but I found that by trying some double stops every day, in whatever style of fingering one uses, in any register, it cools out a lot of problems (at least, it does/did for me).

 

[Tom Gale]

Believe it or not, the ring finger is the weakest of the the 4 fingers you use on the left hand - esp. if you are right handed. That's why the old system with heavy gut strings and high action combined it with the 4th to help it out.


Another thought on the 3rd or ring finger. I like to teach from the closed hand (1,2,4) to the open hand (1,2,3,4) before going to the thumb positions. It helps strengthens that 3rd finger and prepares it for use in the thumb positions.
Tom Gale
ASODB.com

 

[Mark_T]

In my experience, part of the problem with positioning the ring finger deals with the size of your hand, and the length of the ring finger.

If you put your thumb and first fingers down close together, it's easy to make the right shape. As you start introducing space between them, the fingers tend to flatten out to accommodate. The stronger your fingers are, the easier it is to maintain the proper curve, however. This observation leads to some good practice techniques.

Start by playing exercises in thumb position with your fingers all one half step apart. Get comfortable in that position and build up strength. You can play scales like that, although you'll need to make some shifts to reach all the notes. (Petracchi calls this position chromatic - I'm not sure how universal his nomenclature is)

Once you've got that in tune and with good position, introduce a whole step between the thumb and first finger (what Petracchi calles semichromatic) and repeat. You won't have to shift as often. In this position, I like to play scales where my only shifts consist of bringing my thumb from semichromatic up towards my first finger into chromatic.

For instance, playing an A major scale starting at the A harmonic on the A string, the fingering is:

Thumb 1 3, Thumb 1 3, (shift) Thumb 1

Once that's strong and in good position, introduce a whole step also between your first and second finger, and repeat the exercises (Petracchi calls this position diatonic). If you get tired or see your third finger collapsing, take a break or drop back to chromatic for a while.

Hope this helps!

 

[Scott Lynch]

Aye, thumb position seems like such a complicated beast. I have been looking at the George Vance books, which uses the semi-chromatic fingering in book one. My teacher in college once told me to just go back to the first part of Simandl 1 and try playing everything up an octave. That would be a great thing for introducing the chromatic fingering, at least for the section that covers half position.

The four-finger approach sounds like a great idea as well. Again, my teacher demonstrated that technique with Anthropology, on the section of the fingerboard around where the neck meets the body. Makes me wish I had bigger hands!

I noticed something else today as well - it is excruciatingly painful to play up on the tip of my 1st finger in thumb position. Is it acceptable to move back to the pad, or pad/tip hybrid area, or do I need to stop being a wuss and suck it up?

 

[Scott Lynch]

I just tried the four-finger thing with Anthropology. Despite intonation flaws, I like how it reminds me of BG left-hand technique. Tom, do you know of any formal writing on that technique for DB, or any method books I can check out that use such a technique?

 

[kaybass1952]

This is a timely thread for me as I'm working on Hrabe-86 etudes.

I'm trying to work out playing #8 which requires alot of simply G-A-B-C=
T-1-2-3
I'm having problems playing this in tune -too much of a stretch between A (1) & B(2) .I can do it by playing G(T) then pivoting 1 up a semitone and playing B(2) & C(3). Should I work on developing the whole tone stretch between 1&2 , thus keeping all fingers in one position ?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[shwashwa]

i'll wager that he does

I just tried the four-finger thing with Anthropology. Despite intonation flaws, I like how it reminds me of BG left-hand technique. Tom, do you know of any formal writing on that technique for DB, or any method books I can check out that use such a technique?

 

[barend]

The four-finger approach sounds like a great idea as well. Again, my teacher demonstrated that technique with Anthropology, on the section of the fingerboard around where the neck meets the body. Makes me wish I had bigger hands!

what do you mean by four finger approach regarding thumb position? or are you just talking about the general 1-2-3-4 (electric bass type) approach (not in TP)?

It easy to play this 1-2-3-4 approach one octave higher in TP. Just substitute it for T-1-2-3. But maybe you meant that?

 

[Tom Gale]

I just tried the four-finger thing with Anthropology. Despite intonation flaws, I like how it reminds me of BG left-hand technique. Tom, do you know of any formal writing on that technique for DB, or any method books I can check out that use such a technique?

As long as you asked and I won't get into trouble -
"Technical Foundation Studies - vol. 1" - (Open Hand Technique) OR
you can get that book plus The thumb position book - vol 2 all combined into the "Triangulation of Fingering Systems For Double Bass" all by
GUESS WHO??
You can check them out at ASODB.com or the ISB store
Tom Gale

 

[Tom Gale]

slight correction: that should be isbstore.com.
Sorry, TG

 

[Les Fret]

This is a timely thread for me as I'm working on Hrabe-86 etudes.

I'm trying to work out playing #8 which requires alot of simply G-A-B-C=
T-1-2-3
I'm having problems playing this in tune -too much of a stretch between A (1) & B(2) .I can do it by playing G(T) then pivoting 1 up a semitone and playing B(2) & C(3). Should I work on developing the whole tone stretch between 1&2 , thus keeping all fingers in one position ?
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

good question. I also wonder when you play G-A-B-C do you (have to) keep all fingers in place? When I play this with T-1-2-3 my 1st fingers slides upward when putting my 3rd finger on. Is that normal? and what can I do to prevent this?
Looks like my hand is in the correct position without collapsing of the fingers and I don't have too much trouble playing other stuff in TP.

 

[Scott Lynch]

what do you mean by four finger approach regarding thumb position? or are you just talking about the general 1-2-3-4 (electric bass type) approach (not in TP)?

It easy to play this 1-2-3-4 approach one octave higher in TP. Just substitute it for T-1-2-3. But maybe you meant that?

I meant on the lower octave of the neck. Really, the couple of positions right below the octave harmonic, where it is reasonable for my hand size.

 

[Scott Lynch]

As long as you asked and I won't get into trouble -
"Technical Foundation Studies - vol. 1" - (Open Hand Technique) OR
you can get that book plus The thumb position book - vol 2 all combined into the "Triangulation of Fingering Systems For Double Bass" all by
GUESS WHO??
You can check them out at ASODB.com or the ISB store
Tom Gale

No kidding! I'll check it out. Thanks, Tom.

 

[barend]

good question. I also wonder when you play G-A-B-C do you (have to) keep all fingers in place? When I play this with T-1-2-3 my 1st fingers slides upward when putting my 3rd finger on. Is that normal? and what can I do to prevent this?
Looks like my hand is in the correct position without collapsing of the fingers and I don't have too much trouble playing other stuff in TP.

Yes, I have the same problem that my 1st finger is sliding upwards when putting the 3rd on.
How can you hold your 1st finger in place when keeping all the fingers on
G-A-B-C in TP?

 

[David Potts]

Each person's hand is different, not only in the length and strength of each finger but also the shape and the amount of flesh on the finger tip. Some peoples' fingernails do not have enough flesh protruding beyond them, forcing you to collapse the last joint to stay on the pad to avoid pressing the string down with the nail.

To me the best hand shape for most musical instruments (looking at your palm with fingers held together) is when the palm is fairly square, with index finger shorter than ring finger and pinkie at least as long as the last joint of your ring finger. This hand shape enables all your fingers to align and function well all the way up the neck and on into thumb position without grounding your arm on the bass ribs. Anyone with the first three fingers the same length and a short pinkie will have trouble here. Would they be better off on percussion or brass instruments?

In basic thumb position (GABC) it is more important to maintain good finger arches (flesh on fingertips permitting) and half stretch/half shift in a slight rolling motion than to overstretch, stiffen and collapse fingers. The notes are in fixed places and each player has to work out their own best solutions based on the shape and strength of hand and the size and shape of bass Alternately it is often even better to small-shift than roll or stretch. Let the music determine the techniques required.

I don't think think the sliding 1st finger is a problem unless it is audible!

Best wishes to all.

DP

 

[Tom Gale]

As long as you asked and I won't get into trouble -
"Technical Foundation Studies - vol. 1" - (Open Hand Technique) OR
you can get that book plus The thumb position book - vol 2 all combined into the "Triangulation of Fingering Systems For Double Bass" all by
GUESS WHO??
You can check them out at ASODB.com or the ISB store
Tom Gale

Whoops! I forgot my friends at [email protected] Sorry, Toni.
Tom Gale

 

[mcintyre]

One nobody has mentioned surprisingly, it's possible your hand is closer to the fingerboard than it should be. A healthy distance from the fingerboard helps me keep relaxation in the fingers, as opposed to having to reach farther with your hand lying closer to your thumb, which makes it much more of a stretch to reach your fourth/seventh/octave (for cheaters), whatever your having trouble with.

 

[Square Bear]

i think it's best to try to stay as much on the tip of the finger as you can. you need monster callouses to really do this though. i suggest you practice vomits everyday for a couple weeks to build callouses.

the reason you want to keep the fingers curved can be best explained by basic physics. basically, you're trying to get the string down to the board. the most efficient way to do that is to press down from directly on top of the string. when the finger collapses, you're pressing down on the top knuckle, which is then pulling the end of the finger into the string... pretty inefficient all in all. also, there is more surface area in contact with the string, which means more friction, which translates to shifting difficulties. again, inefficient.

my suggestion- use a solid hand position with the fingers curved and focus on using leverage coming through your elbow with the power coming from your back and shoulder. imagine a line running from the base of your spine to your finger tips. any kink in this line cuts off and isolates your energy to whatever is beyond that point. for example, if your wrist is bent unnaturally you isolate and overwork the hand.

also, everyone has a unique physiology. you definitely don't need to keep all the fingers in position when using an open hand fingering (or even a closed hand position for that matter). just do whatever you need to (pivot, shift, etc.) so long as you are keeping your flow of energy intact. don't think of thumb position as a difficult thing, it is only unfamiliar.

hope this helps!