Double Bass thumb position fingerings - Michael Moore vs Petracchi

[the_Ryan]

Thank you to all of you. The most informative part of it is the diversity of approaches.

I also would be interested about your shifting strategy (up and down) in TP. Do you shift "past finger 3" or do you do some kind of "finger replacement"? For example, how would you finger G A B C D E (up) E D C B A G (down) on the G string? Also, where do you place your thumb when playing the other fingers?

There are a ton of options for that 6-note grouping: just with the limitations of starting with thumb and playing the first two and last two notes in one position, you could do [+ 1 2 3] [+ 1], [+ 1 3] [+ 1 3] (or its cousin [+ 1 2] [+ 1 2], [+ 1] [+ 1 2 3], [+ 1] [+ 1] [+ 1], [+ 1 2 3] [1 3/2], [+ 1 3] [1 2 3], [+ 1] [1 2] [1 2], etc. It's all dependent on musical context and comfort and sometimes a "weird"/unorthodox fingering might be the best solution in one scenario.

For the second question, the thumb is never holding the string down unless it's the playing finger, but I try to always keep a diatonic pitch between + and 1, usually a half step, whole step, or minor third. I like my hand shapes (specifically + 1 2 or + 1 3 since I prefer to usually think of 3 note groupings and I usually stay away from 2-3 fingerings) to reflect the key/chord of the moment. If I'm playing A-B on the G string with 1 and 3 in TP and the key of the moment is A major, I'm not going to leave my thumb parked on G, it's probably going to be on G# (or F# with a minor third between + and 1, but that's entirely contextual) because that's more reflective of the tonality. The exception to this is that in the F–Ab range on the G string (where I'd be using a 1 2 3 fingering on either F-F#-G or F#-G-G#) I'll use a transitional position where my thumb is no longer behind the neck but I don't want to employ thumb position, usually because I'm either doing it for vibrato purposes, I'm transitioning from TP to neck position or vice versa, or I'm staying in neck position except for those couple notes where going fully into TP isn't worth it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Also when playing in thumb position... you don't really need the preceding non-playing fingers to be holding the string down...: the thumb always lightly touches the string and 1 can hover over the string. The ideal angle/rotation of the hand to get the best weight transfer changes depending on the playing finger, so keeping the hand at the same angle to play 3 as you would to play 1 will make 3 weaker and harder to play.

^^^

 

[Papageno]

Thank you to all for your much valuable input.

If I may ask about one further point: I find that string crossing in thumb position is quite challenging for the left hand (much more than when playing in the 1st octave).

Do you have any comments on this issue and the way you address it ?

 

[Papageno]

^^^

Perfect post for a thread about "thumb position" !!!

 

[the_Ryan]

Thank you to all for your much valuable input.

If I may ask about one further point: I find that string crossing in thumb position is quite challenging for the left hand (much more than when playing in the 1st octave).

Do you have any comments on this issue and the way you address it ?

Not really other than "practice thumb position exercises on all 4 strings" and to just keep at it .

For one octave major scales there are 4 main no-shift fingerings that cross 2 or 3 strings and being able to play those on all strings in all keys will certainly help. On 3 strings there's A major [+ 1 3 + 1 3 + 1], Bb [1 3 + 1 3 + 2 3] (or + 1 2 at the top), and C [2 + 1 2 + 1 2 3], and on 2 strings starting on the D string there's D [+ 1 2 3 + 1 2 3] (where while you play the G on the D string you move the thumb to A on the G string, then when going down you place 3 on the G while playing A: I know that's a Rabbath/Edgar crab fingering, but I believe Petracchi has a similar concept in some of his exercises where the thumb moves before the rest of the hand does).

 

[Alexis Duntov]

As far as I know, he wrote three volumes of bass method, which I've never seen and guess would be similar to Simandl. He also wrote a book dedicated to thumb position only, which is the one in the link. It's from 1927, titled [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. The sample page is page 1 of the book.
PM me if you have more questions.

Hi, the link is just connecting to a violin shop’s email list sign-up. I know Jason Heath has some Cerny stuff on his site edited by David Heyes.

 

[jj.833]

Hi, the link is just connecting to a violin shop’s email list sign-up.

Probably it looks differently from my side of the planet. I'm putting here few first pages. The book goes like this for about 200 excersises, and then there are some more topics - double stops, arpeggios, harmonics.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Probably it looks differently from my side of the planet. I'm putting here few first pages. The book goes like this for about 200 excersises, and then there are some more topics - double stops, arpeggios, harmonics.

Thanks!

 

[garrett2]

A great exercise from David Moore is with your thumb on the G octave play G# with your index then your middle, then your ring, middle index, then A the same way and on up by half steps to the D (if you can stretch it). Repeat on the D, A, and E. It's amazing for intonation.

I don't think there can be one way to do these things because so much depends on what you play next. For example if I am playing D-E in thumb position and want to then play the F# on the G string with my thumb it may flow better if I play T-3 -T. But if I'm playing a G# it might be T-2-T. And this in turn depends on your particular fingers.

 

[Co.]

Thank you to all for your much valuable input.

If I may ask about one further point: I find that string crossing in thumb position is quite challenging for the left hand (much more than when playing in the 1st octave).

Do you have any comments on this issue and the way you address it ?

A common mistake for thumb position beginners is stretching the fingers to reach the notes on the lower strings. I see this a lot and it always results in poor intonation and makes playing very hard. This is actually quite easy to fix, if you get your whole hand over to the next string. This way, you can keep an effective hand shape while crossing strings.
Most of the time, students make this mistake, if they don't get the concept of left hand/arm wheight. They might already use it intuitively in the lower positions but often forget about it, when learning thumb position.
You could practise one-finger-scales and vibrato exercises in thumb position on all strings, to get feel for left hand wheight first. Then slowly start working on arpeggios, applying weight only on the finger, that is being used, relaxing the other fingers. Then one octave scales without shifting.
I hope this helps.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

^^^Agree.

Everything we need to know is in the "Dem Bones" song. Everything is connected. Not reaching with the finger means reaching with the hand, which means reaching with the wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc. It's a good idea to practice these motions slowly and methodically. It's what I like to teach as the "choreography of the body" when working on technique.

 

[AGCurry]

A common mistake for thumb position beginners is stretching the fingers to reach the notes on the lower strings. I see this a lot and it always results in poor intonation and makes playing very hard. This is actually quite easy to fix, if you get your whole hand over to the next string. This way, you can keep an effective hand shape while crossing strings.

Is this why, when crossing strings, my teacher tells me to move my thumb to the string to be played? Yet another thing to think about!

 

[the_Ryan]

Is this why, when crossing strings, my teacher tells me to move my thumb to the string to be played? Yet another thing to think about!

You can kind of get away with the thumb on one string and moving just the fingers to an adjacent string, but the hand is definitely strongest when the whole arm moves

 

[garrett2]

It's good to play a lot of double stops in thumb positions to get the balance right.

 

[Co.]

It's good to play a lot of double stops in thumb positions to get the balance right.

If one needs repertoire for motivation, instead of purely technical exercises, I recommend Sperger Sonatas in their original form. Modern transcriptions often leave out the double stops, but the orinals are full of them. Of course, much easier in their original Viennese tuning for the left hand.

 

[damonsmith]

The Petracchi is a system, Moore is a set of great exercises. The three "positions" are more like handshapes. They are not really about preference and more like three tools for different jobs.
The chromatic and semi-chromatic are great for improvising since they are far more stable. When you "land" on a note, they are much more stable for getting your ground.

 

[bassbass2024]

I would emphasize minimizing the shift, so two 3 note groups would be the first choice in order to only shift a half step.

So, + 1 3, and then again, then backwards when descending.

Regarding the second question (assuming I understand it, which may not be the case), I tend to play with a relaxed hand in TP, so the thumb is not fixed unless I am alternating between it and another finger. I feel this facilitates more fluidity and ease of shifting and allows for more weight and depth of stops, but it requires a core-centric approach to shifting. I don’t disparage other ways of approaching shifting or different approaches to the use of “the frame”; this is just the approach that feels most natural to me, so I use it.

This is interesting. I think about it a bit differently perhaps in that I consider the phrasing and length of the note for example and where I want to be for the best vibrato. And is there a note I’m anchoring around and shifting back and forth.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

This is interesting. I think about it a bit differently perhaps in that I consider the phrasing and length of the note for example and where I want to be for the best vibrato.

Absolutely. The phrase can determine the fingering for sure. I find keeping the hand relaxed allows for more options along these lines.

And is there a note I’m anchoring around and shifting back and forth.

Also agree. But I think of it more as a position on the board that is being anchored around. Instead of the thumb necessarily being the anchor, it’s the position, which is more about where the shoulder is holding the arm. Maybe it’s two ways of stating the same idea.

 

[damonsmith]

I would emphasize minimizing the shift

I recommend the opposite. The Petracchi positions are meant to solidify the hand position so it is more portable and shifting needn't be feared.
Also, this is a point where understanding the difference between practicing and playing is helpful.
You may choose to play a line with minimal shifts, but in the practice room, you should work out all the variations.
Before Petracchi, people were sort of stuck on moving the diatonic positions around or trying to work within them or doing the Petracchi position in an unsystematic way.

 

[damonsmith]

Thank you to all for your much valuable input.

If I may ask about one further point: I find that string crossing in thumb position is quite challenging for the left hand (much more than when playing in the 1st octave).

Do you have any comments on this issue and the way you address it ?

The easiest way to get started on this is to take your one octave scales in the low register, in their most comfortable fingerings across three strings and sub. T for open strings and 3 for 4 and do them identically in upper register all above the octave of all four strings. Don't worry about tone, just work on them for about a year and string crossing shouldn't be an issue.