Double Bass thumb position fingerings - Michael Moore vs Petracchi

[Papageno]

I am trying to improve a bit my thumb position technique.

I am familiar with Petracchi's 3 positions:
- chromatic (eg. G Ab A Bb with + 1 2 3)(*)
- semi-chromatic (eg G A Bb B with + 1 2 3)
- diatonic (eg G A B C with + 1 2 3)

Among those 3 positions, the semi-diatonic is the one that feels most natural for my hand. The diatonic position feels a little "tense", and I cannot keep the 1st finger down in position when playing the 2nd or 3rd finger. By contrast, the chromatic position feels too "crowded" and I don't like putting down the 1st finger a 1/2 above the thumb. As a result, I usually try to favor fingerings that use Petracchi's semi-chromatic position.

Recently, I looked into M. Moore thumb position method. He recommends to play G A B with + 1 2 even when the 3rd finger is not used to play the C. I would seem more natural to me to play G A B with + 1 3 as in Petracchi's semi-chromatic fingering.

Do you know what is the justification of Moore's fingering choice here ?

Do you use Moore (+ 1 2) or Petracchi (+ 1 3) fingering for a major 3rd (G A B)?


(*) "+" means thumb

 

[Lee Moses]

Personally, I try to maintain familiarity with all those thumb position permutations, and more. Key word being "try." Whichever one is weakest would be the one I would spend more time with.

 

[Steve Freides]

Whether it's a whole step or a half step, if you're moving diatonically, meaning playing consecutive letters of the music alphabet, I've never heard of anyone skipping a finger, which going 1 - 3 would be, in thumb position. None of the examples you mention show + 1 3 for anything. You could, however, give someone the finger while playing G - A - B, so I guess that's something.

Try leaning back into your hips more - it should make the recommended way to play G - A - B feel more OK.

-S-

 

[Papageno]

Whether it's a whole step or a half step, if you're moving diatonically, meaning playing consecutive letters of the music alphabet, I've never heard of anyone skipping a finger, which going 1 - 3 would be, in thumb position. None of the examples you mention show + 1 3 for anything. You could, however, give someone the finger while playing G - A - B, so I guess that's something.

Try leaning back into your hips more - it should make the recommended way to play G - A - B feel more OK.

-S-

Here is an exercise from Petracchi's method. You see how he uses the chromatic and semi-chromatic fingerings in a diatonic context.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I use semi-chromatic and chromatic positions. When I get to the "diatonic-on-the-G" thing, I just shivot on the B to C:

+ 1 3-3

 

[Don Kasper]

When I get to the "diatonic-on-the-G" thing, I just shivot on the B to C:

+ 1 3-3

Hmmm. I guess my question is - Why do you NOT use + 1 2 3?
(Was it "curiosity" that killed the cat? I believe it was...)
Thanks.

 

[mtto]

I use both Petracchi and Moore systems, depending on the line. For bebop, it is essential to have chromatic fingerings; sometimes that requires Petracchi's chromatic position, and sometimes it requires his semi-chromatic position.

Moore's system, as I see it, is about having a set fingering for the entire scale, so you have less to think about and can focus on improvising melodically. If you're playing composed music, there is time to try out different fingerings for a passage and choose the best option. Having a preset fingering for scales and arpeggios is useful for improvising, as there is one less thing to think about. IMO his playing is an excellent argument in favor of his system!

My hands are small. For Petracchi's diatonic position to be comfortable, I have to play on the spot on my thumb where the nail meets the flesh, closer to the tip than the knuckle. David Allen Moore (no relation AFAIK) talks about this in one of his Discover Double Bass courses. It hurts more than playing on the knuckle for a while until you build up a callous, but once you have it, the hand opens up, making the diatonic position easy, even with small hands.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Hmmm. I guess my question is - Why do you NOT use + 1 2 3?
(Was it "curiosity" that killed the cat? I believe it was...)
Thanks.

The interval between thumb and index is variable because of the biological mechanics. So a whole step is fine. Beyond that, I prefer to limit adjacent fingers to half steps.

Didn’t curiosity also kill the banana?

 

[Don Kasper]

I prefer to limit adjacent fingers to half steps.

That's kind of sad...

So a whole step is fine.

What about a Minor 3rd there? - for example - the notes G Bb B C ?, Like the last (triplet) phrase of "Things Ain't What They Used to Be"? I like, and use + (on G) 1 (on Bb, a Minor 3rd above the G, 3 on the C.) Works great...for me, of course.
I think it is worthwhile to explore and get comfortable and confident with ALL Digital Permutations (tm) of that Perfect 4th between G - C in TP.

Didn’t curiosity also kill the banana?

Not sure. I suspect the Vegan Cat.
Sheesh...
(You seem to have an unhealthy obsession with BANANAS, lately. IMFO, of course!)
Also - Thanks for your prompt reply.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

What about a Minor 3rd there? - for example - the notes G Bb B C ?, Like the last (triplet) phrase of "Things Ain't What They Used to Be"? I like, and use + (on G) 1 (on Bb, a Minor 3rd above the G, 3 on the C.) Works great...for me, of course.[\quote]

Sure! I’d use that fingering.

I think it is worthwhile to explore and get comfortable and confident with ALL Digital Permutations (tm) of that Perfect 4th between G - C in TP.

Agree. But to me, I prefer getting familiar. Meaning understanding all of the possible permutations, but also understanding which ones your body likes and dislikes. I dislike a whole step between 1 and 2, so I just don’t use it. But as far as the distance between the thumb and one, I will go as far as a fourth without blinking an eye.

It as easy as peeling a banana, IMO.

 

[Papageno]

Thank you to all of you. The most informative part of it is the diversity of approaches.

I also would be interested about your shifting strategy (up and down) in TP. Do you shift "past finger 3" or do you do some kind of "finger replacement"? For example, how would you finger G A B C D E (up) E D C B A G (down) on the G string? Also, where do you place your thumb when playing the other fingers?

 

[Elk]

Depends, doesn't it? Mostly + 1 2 a la @Steve Freides point but + 1 3 is useful if you want to throw in the b3 after.

 

[jj.833]

Just to add a slightly different approach: About half a year ago, I started to study [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] from early 20th century. My intonation immediately started to sound much better, and this trend continues, making me happy and comfortable in thumb position, for the first time really. This book, according to my reading, uses these main tricks:
- great many combinations of phrases that always are musical - which then teaches you to rely more on your hearing, less on your muscle memory
- emphasis on using fingers 1 and 2 almost exclusively. I found that when I teach 1+2 correctly, adding 3 is actually very simple
- hard reading, which teaches to use the aware, active part of brain when practising
Together, I find it very effective and can recommend the book wholeheartly.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I also would be interested about your shifting strategy (up and down) in TP. Do you shift "past finger 3" or do you do some kind of "finger replacement"? For example, how would you finger G A B C D E (up) E D C B A G (down) on the G string? Also, where do you place your thumb when playing the other fingers?

I would emphasize minimizing the shift, so two 3 note groups would be the first choice in order to only shift a half step.

So, + 1 3, and then again, then backwards when descending.

Regarding the second question (assuming I understand it, which may not be the case), I tend to play with a relaxed hand in TP, so the thumb is not fixed unless I am alternating between it and another finger. I feel this facilitates more fluidity and ease of shifting and allows for more weight and depth of stops, but it requires a core-centric approach to shifting. I don’t disparage other ways of approaching shifting or different approaches to the use of “the frame”; this is just the approach that feels most natural to me, so I use it.

 

[MuseChaser]

I have small hands, too. My approach to fingering, whether thumb positions on bass, challenging violin passages, or tricky chromatic stuff on piano, has always been to master (or come as close to mastery) as many different possible fingerings as I can, and then allow my body to naturally select the one that achieves the desired result based upon tone, pitch, and phrasing.
Context is of the utmost importance, and pigeon-holing one's approach to a single methodology, whether it be Petracci's, Moore's, Simandl, Rabbath, whatever, seems analogous to deciding you really prefer ratchet wrenches and getting rid of your other tools. Sometimes you need a crowfoot, or 12 point ...or even Vice grips and a hammer!

 

[MuseChaser]

...
I also would be interested about your shifting strategy (up and down) in TP. Do you shift "past finger 3" or do you do some kind of "finger replacement"? For example, how would you finger G A B C D E (up) E D C B A G (down) on the G string? Also, where do you place your thumb when playing the other fingers?

I would emphasize minimizing the shift, so two 3 note groups would be the first choice in order to only shift a half step.

So, + 1 3, and then again, then backwards when descending.

...

That is one good option, but I'd need more info before being able to give a concrete answer. Tempo? Where do the notes fall within the phrase? Which are emphasized, if any? Swung or straight? As I said in the earlier post, context drives fingering choices for me. I can definitely see instances where I'd use +, 1, 2, 3, -1, 3(or 2), then maybe, on the way down, 3, 1, 2, -2, 1, +, or 3, 1, 2, 1, +(on the A), then 3 or 4 on the G depending on how the passage continues.

Interesting thread. I've been thinking of proposing a thread where we share our fingerings for Bird heads like Donna Lee, Confirmation, Miles' Sippin' at Bells, etc. Speaking for myself, it seems like my choices and preferred fingerings for those type of tunes is constantly evolving; I'll think I've found the best way to get through passage, then stumble upon something a few months later that just fits better.

 

[Lee Moses]

I also would be interested about your shifting strategy (up and down) in TP. Do you shift "past finger 3" or do you do some kind of "finger replacement"? For example, how would you finger G A B C D E (up) E D C B A G (down) on the G string? Also, where do you place your thumb when playing the other fingers?

I agree with the post above that it depends on context. That said, 9 times out of 10 I would finger the G through C as +123, with my thumb staying on the G. From there, I might go with my thumb to the D, as that is my go-to right now (although it wasn't a couple of years ago, and may not be a couple years from now). 1-2 is also a decent option for the D-E. But ascending and descending, I would sort fingerings from the harmonic notes, G and D in this case.

After thinking about it a second more, I would have to acknowledge that +13+12 would be a solid fingering for the G through E.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

Just to add a slightly different approach: About half a year ago, I started to study [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] from early 20th century. My intonation immediately started to sound much better, and this trend continues, making me happy and comfortable in thumb position, for the first time really. This book, according to my reading, uses these main tricks:
- great many combinations of phrases that always are musical - which then teaches you to rely more on your hearing, less on your muscle memory
- emphasis on using fingers 1 and 2 almost exclusively. I found that when I teach 1+2 correctly, adding 3 is actually very simple
- hard reading, which teaches to use the aware, active part of brain when practising
Together, I find it very effective and can recommend the book wholeheartly.

He seems to have several volumes of books. Which is the one you are using?

 

[jj.833]

He seems to have several volumes of books. Which is the one you are using?

As far as I know, he wrote three volumes of bass method, which I've never seen and guess would be similar to Simandl. He also wrote a book dedicated to thumb position only, which is the one in the link. It's from 1927, titled [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. The sample page is page 1 of the book.
PM me if you have more questions.

 

[the_Ryan]

I am trying to improve a bit my thumb position technique.

I am familiar with Petracchi's 3 positions:
- chromatic (eg. G Ab A Bb with + 1 2 3)(*)
- semi-chromatic (eg G A Bb B with + 1 2 3)
- diatonic (eg G A B C with + 1 2 3)

Among those 3 positions, the semi-diatonic is the one that feels most natural for my hand. The diatonic position feels a little "tense", and I cannot keep the 1st finger down in position when playing the 2nd or 3rd finger. By contrast, the chromatic position feels too "crowded" and I don't like putting down the 1st finger a 1/2 above the thumb. As a result, I usually try to favor fingerings that use Petracchi's semi-chromatic position.

Recently, I looked into M. Moore thumb position method. He recommends to play G A B with + 1 2 even when the 3rd finger is not used to play the C. I would seem more natural to me to play G A B with + 1 3 as in Petracchi's semi-chromatic fingering.

Do you know what is the justification of Moore's fingering choice here ?

Do you use Moore (+ 1 2) or Petracchi (+ 1 3) fingering for a major 3rd (G A B)?


(*) "+" means thumb

Having a whole step between 1 and 2 feels different and for some people and in some areas of the bass it will feel better than + 1 3, particularly when you're past the 3rd partial. Depending on musical context you might prefer the sound of your second finger vibrato to your third finger vibrato, which necessitates that whole step if you don't want to shift. Also when playing in thumb position, with the exception of the 3rd finger (where 2 kind of has to support 3) you don't really need the preceding non-playing fingers to be holding the string down: the thumb always lightly touches the string and 1 can hover over the string. The ideal angle/rotation of the hand to get the best weight transfer changes depending on the playing finger, so keeping the hand at the same angle to play 3 as you would to play 1 will make 3 weaker and harder to play.

I like Petracchi's approach, but I do think it doesn't account for all of the fingering permutations that are useful in thumb position: between the thumb and 1 you can get a pretty good-sized extension without much effort (for me and my bass starting at the octave harmonic I can get a solid major third between thumb and 1 without much change to the other fingers); and between 1, 2, and 3 you can have half-half, half-whole, whole-half, and whole-whole spacing options. The half-whole and whole-whole spacings are less than ideal in a lot of situations (because 2-3 is probably the least strong fingering on the bass and I try to avoid it whenever possible), but there are situations where they are the best fingering option, plus practicing them will make the half-half and whole-half permutations feel stronger.