Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Double Bass Time, feel, and groove.
- Thread starter JavierBass
- Start date
Jake deVilliers
Commercial User
- May 24, 2006
- 6,349
- 607
- Disclosures
- Owner of The Bass Spa, String Repairman at Long & McQuade Vancouver
I'm pretty sure they already have!Just you wait, someone will come on this site and tell us how little time they spend and of course how great they are
I'm pretty sure they already have!
Does the name Snazzy Jazz Pants ring a bell?
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,945
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Actually I was quoting the long lost lermgalieu...and the quote actually was "you never hear anybody say 'where's 2?' "
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,945
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
one teacher of mine once told me that as far as time and groove go you should never rely on some other musician for your time. you should play as if you ARE the time keeper in the band no matter what instrument you play. and that if your groove and time are on then the notes you play don't really matter as much.
one excercise is to walk the chromatic scale over any jazz tune but make sure you play with a groove. you will notice that it pretty much works. but don 't get me wrong it's not a cop out merely an excercise to proove a point. you still need you know the harmony and chord scales.
one excercise is to walk the chromatic scale over any jazz tune but make sure you play with a groove. you will notice that it pretty much works. but don 't get me wrong it's not a cop out merely an excercise to proove a point. you still need you know the harmony and chord scales.
Well, without getting into my entire method and conception...in short I'd make a few quick recommendations, some of which have already been iterated here in some fashion
1) time is not merely mental and conceptual...it is embodied. The consistency of time you are talking about getting is a result of the relationship with the bass and your body. Not a function of mentally keeping time consistent. Cats like Ray Brown exemplified such consistency because of their physical relationship with their instrument. Their time function becomes a physical process...ask any really good drummer about this.
2) practice a 12/8 feel and incorporate that into enhancing your swing feel. it's a great exercise to enhance your triplet feel
3) I am sure I'll get flack for this, but if you want to enhance your time, practice with the metronome on 1 or 1 and 3. The metronome should NOT be used to emulate a hihat...many drummers DO not play their hihat directly on the beat of 2 of 4. Check out Elvin, check out other drummers. These cats played with pulse, not absolute mathematical time on every limb...rhythm becomes a result of gesture and interdependence. The beat becomes BIG, not a little point to be hit perfectly on the beat, again think Elvin and how wide his beat is.
If you practice with 2 and 4 emulating as a hihat, you are learning to play with ONE type of drummer who places their hihat directly on the beat...sorry guys, plenty of drummers are on top of the beat, and that drives the music forward in that context...think Jimmy Cobb
Practicing with the metronome on 1 and 3 grounds your sense of 1 and enables you to do ANYTHING polyrhythmically and have an independent judge. If you want to play 5:4 or 7:4, putting the metronome on 1 and 3 will not be very helpful in determining if you are correct. But feeling one strongest will always make sure you resolve your phrases properly and internalize the larger time frames (not beats,
measures and 4 bar and 8 bar phrases).
But what about swing feel? If you cant feel it, you cant feel it, the metronome shouldnt be determining your swing feel to begin with, it should be internalized and emanating from YOU not the metronome!
Which leads finally to:
4) dont micromanage...hear larger phrases: measures, 4 bar phrases, 6 bar phrases...dont micromanage every beat. let the notes fall into the larger phrase properly
for more in depth on one or two of these ideas, check out my educational videos on youtube at
1) time is not merely mental and conceptual...it is embodied. The consistency of time you are talking about getting is a result of the relationship with the bass and your body. Not a function of mentally keeping time consistent. Cats like Ray Brown exemplified such consistency because of their physical relationship with their instrument. Their time function becomes a physical process...ask any really good drummer about this.
2) practice a 12/8 feel and incorporate that into enhancing your swing feel. it's a great exercise to enhance your triplet feel
3) I am sure I'll get flack for this, but if you want to enhance your time, practice with the metronome on 1 or 1 and 3. The metronome should NOT be used to emulate a hihat...many drummers DO not play their hihat directly on the beat of 2 of 4. Check out Elvin, check out other drummers. These cats played with pulse, not absolute mathematical time on every limb...rhythm becomes a result of gesture and interdependence. The beat becomes BIG, not a little point to be hit perfectly on the beat, again think Elvin and how wide his beat is.
If you practice with 2 and 4 emulating as a hihat, you are learning to play with ONE type of drummer who places their hihat directly on the beat...sorry guys, plenty of drummers are on top of the beat, and that drives the music forward in that context...think Jimmy Cobb
Practicing with the metronome on 1 and 3 grounds your sense of 1 and enables you to do ANYTHING polyrhythmically and have an independent judge. If you want to play 5:4 or 7:4, putting the metronome on 1 and 3 will not be very helpful in determining if you are correct. But feeling one strongest will always make sure you resolve your phrases properly and internalize the larger time frames (not beats,
measures and 4 bar and 8 bar phrases).
But what about swing feel? If you cant feel it, you cant feel it, the metronome shouldnt be determining your swing feel to begin with, it should be internalized and emanating from YOU not the metronome!
Which leads finally to:
4) dont micromanage...hear larger phrases: measures, 4 bar phrases, 6 bar phrases...dont micromanage every beat. let the notes fall into the larger phrase properly
for more in depth on one or two of these ideas, check out my educational videos on youtube at
I've been reading a few technical books on various music styles, and one thing that hasn't been mentioned is that you can be "in time" but where you're playing with the beat can dramatically change the feel of what you're playing.
Play with a metronome, and try to hit exactly when the metronome goes off. If you're feeling snazzy, record it and play it back. Now, do it again, but let the metronome lead -- your notes should come in a split second after the metronome. It'll lead to a lazier, slower feel -- without actually changing the tempo at all.
If you're rushing a metronome you're usually hitting before the actual beat. That's fine if you're playing in a punk band or ska, where the music has a lot of energy and speed, but a lot of that energy and speed feel comes from where guitarists are starting their strum, and the same is true for bass -- when you pull that string, you should be doing it the same way for each song.
But exactly how you approach that song is up to you. For example, if you listen through Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue," you'll note that he has such command over where he wants to put every note that, if you were to put a metronome on the track, he almost sounds late or wrong. Take the metronome off, though, and you hear something different -- that he put each note where he intended to.
So playing a little behind the beat for a lazy passage, and then playing right on top of the beat when it goes doubletime, well, that's what practice is for
For something more modern, you can hear some good examples of playing around with groove on Soul Coughing's "Ruby Vroom" album. "True Dreams of Wichita" has some very "lazy" bass playing -- he never loses time, and he never conflicts with the drummer, but the note usually hits later than "perfect" because that's how most of the song goes. And then there's this part where it gets really funky and he's playing opposite the drummer and he's right there on top of every beat, nailing it.
Bass is mostly a rhythm part, and understanding how that works is really key to making it work. My bad habit is that I don't practice with a metronome all the time, when I really should be. Understanding how to go from playing "perfectly" to actually expressing the music with your playing, though, is what comes after you understand timing.
edit: a perhaps overkill example are the various versions of Satie's "Lent et douloureux" of his Gymnopedies. As written, they're simple and sweet, and played exactly as written, kind of boring. Most versions will seriously "drag" behind the tempo, though, almost to the point of being late, and that's where the feeling comes in -- understanding where the notes SHOULD to go, even though they're written on the page ;D
Play with a metronome, and try to hit exactly when the metronome goes off. If you're feeling snazzy, record it and play it back. Now, do it again, but let the metronome lead -- your notes should come in a split second after the metronome. It'll lead to a lazier, slower feel -- without actually changing the tempo at all.
If you're rushing a metronome you're usually hitting before the actual beat. That's fine if you're playing in a punk band or ska, where the music has a lot of energy and speed, but a lot of that energy and speed feel comes from where guitarists are starting their strum, and the same is true for bass -- when you pull that string, you should be doing it the same way for each song.
But exactly how you approach that song is up to you. For example, if you listen through Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue," you'll note that he has such command over where he wants to put every note that, if you were to put a metronome on the track, he almost sounds late or wrong. Take the metronome off, though, and you hear something different -- that he put each note where he intended to.
So playing a little behind the beat for a lazy passage, and then playing right on top of the beat when it goes doubletime, well, that's what practice is for
For something more modern, you can hear some good examples of playing around with groove on Soul Coughing's "Ruby Vroom" album. "True Dreams of Wichita" has some very "lazy" bass playing -- he never loses time, and he never conflicts with the drummer, but the note usually hits later than "perfect" because that's how most of the song goes. And then there's this part where it gets really funky and he's playing opposite the drummer and he's right there on top of every beat, nailing it.
Bass is mostly a rhythm part, and understanding how that works is really key to making it work. My bad habit is that I don't practice with a metronome all the time, when I really should be. Understanding how to go from playing "perfectly" to actually expressing the music with your playing, though, is what comes after you understand timing.
edit: a perhaps overkill example are the various versions of Satie's "Lent et douloureux" of his Gymnopedies. As written, they're simple and sweet, and played exactly as written, kind of boring. Most versions will seriously "drag" behind the tempo, though, almost to the point of being late, and that's where the feeling comes in -- understanding where the notes SHOULD to go, even though they're written on the page ;D
- Dec 13, 1999
- 11,737
- 8,945
- 70
- Disclosures
- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
For those folks who are unfamiliar with his playing, Thomas Kneeland is B A D.
In a good way....
In a good way....
Thanks Mr. Kneeland for providing the links to your UTube lessons. You are a wonderful bassist! A drummer friend of mine gave me that same time/metronome exercise that I have found to be invaluable. The one where you play whole notes through 32nd notes at a metronome setting of about 52-60. So helpful
Thanks
Thanks
- Jun 25, 2007
- 4,531
- 135
- 63
- Disclosures
- Artist:TC Electronic RH450 bass system (original test-pilot)
I always find it easier to play 'behind" the beat with any drummer, as long as they aren't "dragging" the tempo.
i can't ever get a drummer to "speed-up" by playing ahead of the beat.
Makes you sound like the problem instead of the cure.
i can't ever get a drummer to "speed-up" by playing ahead of the beat.
Makes you sound like the problem instead of the cure.
