Double Bass Timing issues, rushing/dragging

[Mattbass123]

Hey gang, I play electric bass in a jazz combo, but figured you are the group who could help me the most.

Our group has timing issues. Usually when we play with our drummer we tend to rush. Last night we played without the drummer and we were dragging.

I think our drummer has a natural tendency to want to play fast, and on up tempo songs I feel like the bass works best a little on top of the beat, or pushing a little. But when we both are trying to push the beat a little it causes us to rush.

Last night without the drummer I felt like I was pushing, but we still slowed down quite a bit,I felt like the horns were playing in quicksand! But then after the sax player said he had to keep pushing the tempo, and that I was slowing down! ***

After practice me and the sax player were talking and he said maybe I got used to trying to hold back the drummer and now I have a natural tendency to to try and hold back.

We count off the song and I play quarter notes walking lines, I can feel the pulse in my body and mind, I tap my foot, bob my head, move my body, but it's like we're hearing a different pulse, I don't get it.

I know practicing with a metronome is always a good idea, I don't do it daily but at least a couple times a week. I always thought I have good rhythm but now I'm beginning to see I suck at holding down the tempo.

I never have any timing issues in any of the pop/rock/r&b band I play with, seems to be a jazz specific thing.

Any advice?

 

[sean_on_bass]

I learned what good time and feel is supposed to sound like from listening to a ton of jazz recordings. I reinforce that in my playing by playing along with a metronome or recording and trying to establish the time and feel in my head. Playing with other good/better musicians also has helped a bit. My time is still not perfect, but i feel i can hold my own fairly well in both drummer and drummerless situations.

Make metronome work a part of your daily practice. Any exercises or music you are practicing, do it with a metronome at varying tempos. When walking with a metronome, try to establish a swing feel, don't just follow the clicks like a robot. Make music with the nome like it is another player. Also play along with and continue listening to great jazz recordings.

 

[Mattbass123]

Thanks for the reply, actually first thing I did when I got home was to play along with a slow blues recording by Gene Ammons haha.

I will up my metronome game, I like to set it so it clicks on beat 2 and 4. Makes it feel more like a real drummer.

Maybe I'll try setting the metronome a little faster, and also slower than I am used to. I think one of my problems is I tend to settle into the tempo I'm most comfortable with.

 

[Carl Hillman]

Hey gang, I play electric bass in a jazz combo, but figured you are the group who could help me the most.

Our group has timing issues. Usually when we play with our drummer we tend to rush. Last night we played without the drummer and we were dragging.

I think our drummer has a natural tendency to want to play fast, and on up tempo songs I feel like the bass works best a little on top of the beat, or pushing a little. But when we both are trying to push the beat a little it causes us to rush.

Last night without the drummer I felt like I was pushing, but we still slowed down quite a bit,I felt like the horns were playing in quicksand! But then after the sax player said he had to keep pushing the tempo, and that I was slowing down! ***

After practice me and the sax player were talking and he said maybe I got used to trying to hold back the drummer and now I have a natural tendency to to try and hold back.

We count off the song and I play quarter notes walking lines, I can feel the pulse in my body and mind, I tap my foot, bob my head, move my body, but it's like we're hearing a different pulse, I don't get it.

I know practicing with a metronome is always a good idea, I don't do it daily but at least a couple times a week. I always thought I have good rhythm but now I'm beginning to see I suck at holding down the tempo.

I never have any timing issues in any of the pop/rock/r&b band I play with, seems to be a jazz specific thing.

Any advice?

Always practice with a metronome.

When playing with your band and there's no drummer, it's your job to be the "master clock" and hold down the time. If they start dragging, don't follow. Ignore them if you must to keep the tempo where it's supposed to be.

To instill a rock solid internal temporal awareness, you must calibrate yourself to a standard. (the metronome) You get better at this the more often you work on it.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Thanks for the reply, actually first thing I did when I got home was to play along with a slow blues recording by Gene Ammons haha.

I will up my metronome game, I like to set it so it clicks on beat 2 and 4. Makes it feel more like a real drummer.

Maybe I'll try setting the metronome a little faster, and also slower than I am used to. I think one of my problems is I tend to settle into the tempo I'm most comfortable with.

Yes, practice at ALL tempos. Super slow, super fast, and everything in between. I used to do the 2 & 4 thing but these days i have it playing every quarter note pulse. Maybe try some of both.

 

[dreamadream99]

There is a natural tendency to drag fast tempos, and rush slow tempos.

 

[fu22ba55]

You could make a click track that drops a bar or two here and there, or find a metronome app that drops bars.

You should be able to work something up in any DAW. I made a click track in MuseScore (see attached JPG).

The trick is not being able to play well WITH a metronome, rather being able to play well WITHOUT one.

Scott's Bass Lesson's demos this practice technique:


So in addition to regular practice with a metronome, figure out how to practice with one that drops out. The more randomly, the better.

 

[Mattbass123]

Always practice with a metronome.

When playing with your band and there's no drummer, it's your job to be the "master clock" and hold down the time. If they start dragging, don't follow. Ignore them if you must to keep the tempo where it's supposed to be.

To instill a rock solid internal temporal awareness, you must calibrate yourself to a standard. (the metronome) You get better at this the more often you work on it.

The sax player in the group told me we are all equally responsible for the tempo, in my mind the drums set the tempo, next in the chain of command is bass.

 

[bass12]

The sax player in the group told me we are all equally responsible for the tempo, in my mind the drums set the tempo, next in the chain of command is bass.

Well, you need to feed off each other to some extent. If one of you has less-than-decent timing then everyone is going to suffer. But, yes, it's normal for the instruments that play consistently on the beats (that usually means drums and bass) to be the main reference points for time.

As for metronomes, they can definitely be useful but always practising to a metronome is, in my opinion, not a good idea. Decide what the focus of your practice is going to be and proceed accordingly. Having a metronome ticking away in the background while you are trying to focus on another aspect of your playing can be a distraction and can be counter-productive.

 

[Mattbass123]

Well, you need to feed off each other to some extent. If one of you has less-than-decent timing then everyone is going to suffer. But, yes, it's normal for the instruments that play consistently on the beats (that usually means drums and bass) to be the main reference points for time.

As for metronomes, they can definitely be useful but always practising to a metronome is, in my opinion, not a good idea. Decide what the focus of your practice is going to be and proceed accordingly. Having a metronome ticking away in the background while you are trying to focus on another aspect of your playing can be a distraction and can be counter-productive.

Yeah he has this strong opinion that we are equal in regards to time keeping responsibility. I like the idea philosophically, but in the real world I think the rest of the band should think of the high-hat 2&4 as THE beat and take it from there.

 

[rufus.K]

Metronome.
Half time metronome regular playing speed.
Doublentime metronome reg. playing speed

 

[bass12]

Yeah he has this strong opinion that we are equal in regards to time keeping responsibility. I like the idea philosophically, but in the real world I think the rest of the band should think of the high-hat 2&4 as THE beat and take it from there.

In a sense he's right: you all need to listen to - and respond - to each other in a timing capacity, but it's natural to use the instruments that are playing consistently on the beats (and are often subdividing, in the case of drums especially) as primary reference points. That doesn't mean blindly adhering to what the drums and bass are doing, but the drums and bass are the ones laying out the primary time grid. Someone mentioned ignoring the others if their timing goes off but I don't think that's a good idea. You have to function as a unit and it needs to sound that way. You can "direct" the band time-wise without ignoring them and just plowing ahead. I once played a gig where the drummer, taking a childish stance during one song, played along to a metronome while ignoring the rest of the band. It sounded absolutely terrible, as the drummer was not moving at all with the music nor with the other musicians. He just ended up looking like a jerk who couldn't play.

 

[Groove Doctor]

It's common for the Horns to ignore the Bassist when there is no drummer.

 

[Mattbass123]

I once played a gig where the drummer, taking a childish stance during one song, played along to a metronome while ignoring the rest of the band. It sounded absolutely terrible, as the drummer was not moving at all with the music nor with the other musicians. He just ended up looking like a jerk who couldn't play.

Haha I did that last night, I rushed so much it was a trainwreck. Frustrating night lol

It's common for the Horns to ignore the Bassist when there is no drummer.

Yesss, this is what I want to hear haha, those bastards lol

 

[Carl Hillman]

The sax player in the group told me we are all equally responsible for the tempo

He has a point, but some people take that responsibility more seriously than others.

 

[edro]

Just some pondering... Ignore at will....

Metronome is both manna from heaven and the devil's bane...

Most folks hate em because they will light you up in a flash....

"I have perfect timing but I can't play with a metronome." Ok, den......

I would suggest in private practice, setting the metronome up one division from what you are playing.

If playing qtr, set to eighths, if eighths, set to sixteenths... Helps hear divisions for some folks....

I used that sometimes in teaching to help folks align themselves. The "off beats" between played notes helps to align to the window for each note played...

I am a firm believer of 'if you can count it, you can play it' on most any phrase/lick (at some speed) IF you know in what window of what beat a note occurs. Playing in different bands over the decades, I have noticed that the folks with timing issues cannot count through a pattern or phrase and usually have no clue actually where a note sits within the divisions...... Soooooo, they usually fire off on a bunch-a-notes pattern early and compress it to less than actual duration (playing it too fast), just trying to make it to the end instead of letting it come to them in time... Many make it more difficult than it is by trying to play it faster than what it actually is.

I'm not going into reading music, but I have seen folks figure out a transcribed (numbers on skrangs) passage note for note with zero relation to time and unable to play it with any any meter or with anybody else as they have no concept of the 'when' part. Sometimes worse than horrendous when they try to play it with others...

I've had folks sing the rhythm of a phrase to a beat to learn the timing. Whatever works......

Carry on....

 

[Tom Lane]

There are a lot of different reasons that cause the time to change and IME, you can learn to recognize many of them by recording yourself anytime you perform and listen back a few days to a week later. For instance, sometimes, the horns drag because they're not yet proficient with their parts so really, the tempo is too fast for them. After a few years of playing with pretty good time I noticed that I had started to rush my fills at the end of the measure - I still do this sometimes - and the band would hear that and speed up, so I was the problem in that case. Other times, it's like you said, the interaction of the rhythm section that causes the tempo to change. Careful listening of your recordings will reveal all of the warts. One of the best things you can do if the tempo starts to rush is play more simply and legato.

Next, I'll bet you're gonna ask us what you should do about a significant tempo change.

 

[longfinger]

I never have any timing issues in any of the pop/rock/r&b band I play with, seems to be a jazz specific thing.

Any advice?

If the above is true, it could be the jazz bass language is not in your mind and fingers well enough for your current group situation. If you're struggling to come up with lines, you'll end up slowing down as you figure out what to play next. Go through the basics again. Notes and fingerings. Next rehearsal, record the group, use the metronome count off, and playing "boring" bass lines you know very well and don't need to figure out. Repetition is fine for now. Find out if you slowed down or not. If less than usual, or not at all, it seems you just need to be more familiar with the songs, and the bass line language.

 

[edro]

by recording yourself

Bamm! Another winner. Recordings don't lie.....

 

[lurk]

I'm a contrarian. Practicing with a metronome is not the answer. Our job is to generate a pulse, not hook up with a click. Make sure everything you practice is rhythmic - feel the pulse. If you can really feel it your band mates should be able to feel it too. They're drawn to the music cause they can perceive it. If you're able to generate it, they'll get it. Not easy to do, but that's the key...no being a metronome. This is not an original idea with me BTW. I got it from a hall of fame bassist. Also, check out Hal Galper on YouTube, imho one of the best jazz educators with a resume that includes folks like Cannonball, Dizzy, Phil Woods.