Tips on memorizing forms that hang on the I for a long time?

[lm183902]

Sorry, not the most descriptive title.

I’ve played for years, have several gigs and feel generally confident in my playing, but there’s one thing that has always seemed to trip me up. When I’m playing over a solo section on a tune that has a form that hangs out on the I chord for a really long time, I have more trouble internalizing it. Once I’ve got it, I’m totally fine, but I seem to pick this up slower than most things.

A good example would be a tune like John Coltrane’s Impressions. When learning this one, I was fine once the melody was going, but it took me some time to feel it. This can be pretty frustrating, as I’ve got plenty of experience and it’s a simple concept.

Again, once I spend the time to internalize it, I’m fine. What really gets me is that it’s not an immediate thing, and the last thing I ever want to do as a bass player is jump the gun on moving to a new section.

Would love some tips on how to approach this in a way that would help me. I’ve never been a reader and have never actively counted while playing - it’s always been memory/feel based for me and I think lacking that more structured approach is what’s hurting me here.

 

[Pacman]

This isn't about memorizing the form. IMO, you're asking about internalizing the forum, which is different.

Sing the melody in your head or count is my only advice about that tune (So What is exactly the same). And the real trap is that on subsequent choruses, you get 3 "A" sections in a row.

No shortcuts - you have to focus.

 

[TomB]

Agreed you will need to come up with a system, like break it into 4-bar blocks or some other manageable pieces. The other suggestion that may or may not work is to ask your band leader for a cue that you agree on for a section change. In some bands I’ve been in, that was necessary to keep any semblance of form, and appreciated by the leader - assuming they’re not counting on you to lead the change .

 

[lm183902]

Thanks for the replies!

Yeah, singing the melody internally is how I get through it until I’ve internalized it. The downside is that I’m ultimately focusing on something that isn’t the music at hand while that’s happening. I suppose after 27 years of avoiding it, I should probably dive into some reading studies I think being forced to count/analyze on a deeper level could only help?

I’ve managed to do pretty well as a self-taught player, but issues like this one really remind me that my lack of formal music education has created the occasional gap in my abilities.

 

[srosenthal13]

Like @TomB suggested, think and count in 4 bar phrases. As a drummer, I might drop a crash or small fill to mark the transitions, so consider using a fill or pickup every 4 bars. Also, if you're working with a drummer, listen to what he's doing, if anything, to mark the phrases. That might be a reasonable cue.

 

[TomB]

Thanks for the replies!

Yeah, singing the melody internally is how I get through it until I’ve internalized it. The downside is that I’m ultimately focusing on something that isn’t the music at hand while that’s happening. I suppose after 27 years of avoiding it, I should probably dive into some reading studies I think being forced to count/analyze on a deeper level could only help?

I’ve managed to do pretty well as a self-taught player, but issues like this one really remind me that my lack of formal music education has created the occasional gap in my abilities.

I don’t disagree, but should point out that many of the best-trained musicians in the world still need to count at times.

 

[sean_on_bass]

with practice you will be able to feel larger chunks of time. but when that is not working for me, i imagine the melody in my head to help stick to the form.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Create your own Landmarks - minor fill every 4 bars, medium fill every 8 bars, something special every 16 bars.

 

[JonathanPDX]

Create your own Landmarks - minor fill every 4 bars, medium fill every 8 bars, something special every 16 bars.

Yup, this is great not just for the band but for the audience. No matter how much fun the soloist is having, the audience needs to feel some sense of movement or momentum. I'll watch the drummer and if he's setting up a fill I'll back off, but if he's cruising along then I'll add some embellishment.

In the end it's not about how you count it but how the soloist is counting it. When they anticipate the change is infinitely more important than where you think it should be. There's nothing wrong with asking for a cue, or if it's a normal part of the set you can even ask the soloist if they have an ending or cue they give to signal the next change. After you play the same thing 200 times you often find they end the same way, whether it's a melodic idea or just the pace at which they step back up to the mic.

 

[buldog5151bass]

There are times where I just counted each measure. A different genre, but Sharp Dressed Man stays on the root for 10 measures in each solo section. I have to count, no matter how many times I play the tune.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

Sorry, not the most descriptive title.

I’ve played for years, have several gigs and feel generally confident in my playing, but there’s one thing that has always seemed to trip me up. When I’m playing over a solo section on a tune that has a form that hangs out on the I chord for a really long time, I have more trouble internalizing it. Once I’ve got it, I’m totally fine, but I seem to pick this up slower than most things.

A good example would be a tune like John Coltrane’s Impressions. When learning this one, I was fine once the melody was going, but it took me some time to feel it. This can be pretty frustrating, as I’ve got plenty of experience and it’s a simple concept.

Again, once I spend the time to internalize it, I’m fine. What really gets me is that it’s not an immediate thing, and the last thing I ever want to do as a bass player is jump the gun on moving to a new section.

Would love some tips on how to approach this in a way that would help me. I’ve never been a reader and have never actively counted while playing - it’s always been memory/feel based for me and I think lacking that more structured approach is what’s hurting me here.

Always learn the melody, and branch your solos off that, even if it ends up ultimately being FAR off that melody. It gives you a place to start and come back to- for your own internal organization as well as coherency as a solo or expressive moment for listeners and the other band members. Always have that melody in your head, ready to go back there and restate it, harmonically, rhythmically or in some way, no matter where you are in your playing moment. It's true for everyone- even when I'm playing drums, I can sing the melody and that keeps me tied to the form, and keeps my solos from sounding like random licks and patterns, and more like I'm navigating the opportunity intentionally, knowing where I am at all moments. Working with a metronome that has clicks for downbeats as well as other denominations is also very helpful in helping build granular sensibility of where you are in the time you have.

 

[FullumMusic]

Like others have said, give yourself predictable landmarks at certain bars where you play things a certain way. That gives the endless vamp on a single chord a bit of a structure, makes it easier to count, and also helps the rest of the band keep track of where the band is. Each time through you play it a certain way and that does a bit of the counting for you. It could be as simple as a 1 note difference on the And of 4, or a different walk direction, or no-fill/fill. It'll be different depending on what works for the song and what everyone else is playing.

I find ABAC is one of the easier ways to group things and not get lost. It automatically gives you twice around and 4 times around without thinking too hard about counting every single note and bar.

 

[Relsom]

I agree in counting things in groups of bars. You must pay attention, no matter what, and don't wander off musically. Just as you are looking for cues to move from section to section, the soloists are counting on your cues and more importantly, stability, to help them keep their parts on track too. Listen to the 50 or so measures that make up Dickie Betts's solo in Jessica after the piano solo. Several groups of nuanced passages based on the same thing. Ok, not 1 note, but 2, but you'll get the idea

 

[coyote1]

The landmark idea works wonders. Especially with all the modal So What type stuff like Impressions. Its form is A A B A, with each A being the erstwhile ‘home’ mode and the B being a half step up or something. But when played over and over, it plays like

A A B A A A B A A A B A

So with three A sections in a row, it’s easy to get lost. One of the things I learned from covering Deep Purple stuff is to have someone in the band who ‘cues’ the band visually on this sort of thing. Cue the band when it’s time to do the B section, cue the band when you’re done with your solo, etc. And not just a head nod… a real visual flourish of some sort. Which incidentally becomes a bit of theater for the audience; it keeps them engaged.

The other half of that is the band needs to know its instruments well enough that you’re not looking down at the neck (or keyboard, or whatever) but can instead look to whomever is directing these things. It’s great if that is the soloist, because if the entire band is paying attention to the soloist the audience will be inclined to do likewise. In my group I’m now the one directing. And if I sense anyone in the band might be lost I just call it out: “CHANGE IN FOUR THREE TWO ONE NOW!”

 

[bigswifty1]

Create your own Landmarks - minor fill every 4 bars, medium fill every 8 bars, something special every 16 bars.

This is good! We used to have one song with a 16 bars on a single chord. I had to play the same notes throughout. I used to play the same notes but on different strings/different parts of the neck, swapping every four bars.

 

[Bass]

Create your own Landmarks - minor fill every 4 bars, medium fill every 8 bars, something special every 16 bars.

I agree with Big Swifty, this is good tip.

For landmarks, I will sometimes play the same note once in the first section, twice in the second section, and three times in the third section. For example, instead of a quarter note in the first section, play 2 eighth notes in the second section.

You can do the same thing to mark your place after (or before) 4 bars, 8 bars and 12 bars. Sometimes a good place to place the landmarks is within the lead notes or pickup notes.

 

[TomB]

I agree with Big Swifty, this is good tip.

For landmarks, I will sometimes play the same note once in the first section, twice in the second section, and three times in the third section. For example, instead of a quarter note in the first section, play 2 eighth notes in the second section.

You can do the same thing to mark your place after (or before) 4 bars, 8 bars and 12 bars. Sometimes a good place to place the landmarks is within the lead notes or pickup notes.

…or the turnaround if there is one.

 

[mambo4]

I had to cover the theme for Shaft once, on short notice
The intro is a 2 chord vamp but goes on for several bars, I had trouble keeping count
In the end I charted every single bar and just read it.

Can you dig it?