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Double Bass Tips to practice improvisation on rhythm changes efficiently ?

S

Samuel236

Aug 14, 2023
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#1
Hello !

I'm a double bass player and recently I've been working on rhythm changes, my walking bass lines are getting better (I did some transcription) and now I want to work on improv so at first I was just connecting the arpeggios slowly and sing/play the guide tones but when it come to play a solo I feel like I'm noodling and it doesn't make any sense.

So I was wondering how do you guys, practice improvisation efficiently on rhythm changes and how to stop noodling and make something musical !

Samuel
 
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#2
Welcome to Talk Bass! The way you are going about it is fine, it will take time to develop a language that makes sense. Listen (and transcribe if it helps) to as many recordings as you can. Also, learn the head to as many songs as you’re able. They will increase your vocabulary. If you listen to a lot of the early solo works, they’re based on these melodies. Even a lot of the contemporary players still use head phrasings to build their solos. Also, less is more, especially on DB. Makes sure what you play sounds like a conversation you would have with the audience. Breathes, breaks, cadences; just like telling a story. This seems a bit obtuse in the beginning, but will make more sense if your listening to the changes that way instead of trying to play all the right scales, etc… Another good tool is a program that has rhythm changes to practice over like IRealPro or similar. You can build simple changes to work over or use all the built in changes people have added over the years. There is also a discussion currently on TB about software called quartetapp here: www.talkbass.com/threads/brilliant-practice-tools-for-jazz-quartet-live-jazz-standards-play-along-apps.1618001/#post-27713406.

I’ve been playing bass for over 40 years, mostly jazz electric fretless and have moved to DB in the last couple of years. In that time, I’ve discovered so much good solo work by many bassists famous and not so famous. Good phrasing is about hearing what’s in your head and getting it out to the audience. Keep at it. One day, someone will tell you how great a solo you did sounded to them. Then you’ll know your on the right track!
 
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#4
Samuel236 said:
Hello !
Click to expand...
Welcome here -- this is a nice place for Samuels!

Samuel236 said:
So I was wondering how do you guys, practice improvisation efficiently on rhythm changes and how to stop noodling and make something musical !
Click to expand...
No joke: When it comes to music in general and jazz in particular I am not a big believer in efficiency.
Speed of learning has minimal value to me. Simply continuing to learn -- at any pace -- is its own reward.

All the best with your quest!
 
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#7
Some of the things I think great soloing requires....and no I am by no means a great soloist.

1. Foundational knowledge of harmony, melody, and rhythm. These are concepts you learn on multiple levels. I.E. you can think harmony and you can also hear harmony...two different levels.
2. The ability to hear the changes and anticipate what comes next without loosing your place.
3. A certain independence from the changes. Think of it as playing across the changes rather than with them. My point is your melodic ideas don't need to always be perfectly synced to the changes.
4. Structured approaches/formulas for playing outside the changes. This can involve chord substitution, chromatic formulas, altered chords and scales, modes, etc. You could spend a lifetime and still be learning.

There are probably more factors to consider.

Additionally, I think people tend to make the mistake of assuming that solos are 100% improvised. I don't necessarily think this is the case. Rather I think it's common for great players to study the changes in a very deep way so they can figure out how to approach them. You may spend a significant time working out different ways to play across a couple of changes...rather than practicing a solo from end to end.

IMHO most music theory concepts are actually quite simple. The problem is playing music requires integrating so many simple concepts simultaneously that you can't hold everything in your working memory. Because of this you have to automate a lot of your playing. In other words you practice until you can do it without thinking. When you are working up a solo you are essentially slowing everything down so you can actually isolate and pay attention to specific mental processes that are usually automated during performance.

What happens on the gig or recording is sort of a regurgitation and stringing together of different ideas that were previously developed, honed, and memorized to the point of automation.
 
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#9
Don't think about sets of specific changes. Learn how lines work, straight lines, lines with ornament (notes unrelated to the harmony such as bouncing off an open string that is not in the chord), circumscribing lines, etc.
Pick a chord tone or extension of the first chord and pick a chord tone or extension to land on from the next chord or even a couple of chords later - pick the sort of line you want to use and connect the two notes with it.
Practice making different types of lines between these notes. Change the lines and notes up, rinse, repeat.
 
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#11
Samuel236 said:
Hello !

I'm a double bass player and recently I've been working on rhythm changes, my walking bass lines are getting better (I did some transcription) and now I want to work on improv so at first I was just connecting the arpeggios slowly and sing/play the guide tones but when it come to play a solo I feel like I'm noodling and it doesn't make any sense.

So I was wondering how do you guys, practice improvisation efficiently on rhythm changes and how to stop noodling and make something musical !

Samuel
Click to expand...
For more melodic solos that don't just "run the changes", check out Lester Young.
 
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#13
Remember that the harmony in rhythm changes A sections is based on a diatonic melody over diatonic harmony. So assuming you are playing RC in Bb, learn how to make a decent melody in Bb. Think of melodies like “I Got Rhythm” or “Lester Leaps In” etc.

Then, once you feel comfortable at that level, start to add the changing tones to specific parts of the progression as you hear them. I would start with the movement to the IV chord in bars 5-6, then the turnaround. But the foundation of it is learning to make a decent melody in the key of the progression.

As you get more experienced, you’ll come to hear that the chord tones of the diatonic chords in the progression are 100% already in the key center, and the chord tones of the secondary function chords are always at least 50% already in the key center, and usually 75%. At this point, you can decide whether to target the common tones or the changing tones.
 
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#14
Learn to riff. Especially on bass this is the key to making rc sound like music. If you haven't already checked it out Ethan Iverson has a great teaching pdf with a bunch of historic rc tunes you can check out. Running the changes on rc tunes won't get you very far; checking out some of the great historic rc changes will give you the vocab to learn to riff conversationally on rc -- that's the ticket.
 
#15
Don't check out anything that hack Iverson has ever said or done unless you want to sound so mediocre you have use pop hits to get attention. Jazz and especially bebop is not for "harmonic literalists"! You need to understand "detaching" from the harmony and landing back on it. Once you leave your chord tone - especially in a solo, you are on your way to the one you are landing on. You are more or less "free" in between. Your ear will actually push you to stay within diatonic harmony - chromatic lines help you to be more interesting - so it is pretty rare that someone needs to push that. Which chord tone you land on can define whether you are checking in or resolving your line.

It is anything as simple as "just listen" but more to use your intellectual powers to keep the form and further your understand of the harmony and thus pick better notes to take off and land on. You find your sound in between.
 
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#16
damonsmith said:
Don't check out anything that hack Iverson has ever said or done unless you want to sound so mediocre you have use pop hits to get attention. Jazz and especially bebop is not for "harmonic literalists"! You need to understand "detaching" from the harmony and landing back on it. Once you leave your chord tone - especially in a solo, you are on your way to the one you are landing on. You are more or less "free" in between. Your ear will actually push you to stay within diatonic harmony - chromatic lines help you to be more interesting - so it is pretty rare that someone needs to push that. Which chord tone you land on can define whether you are checking in or resolving your line.

It is anything as simple as "just listen" but more to use your intellectual powers to keep the form and further your understand of the harmony and thus pick better notes to take off and land on. You find your sound in between.
Click to expand...

Eh - agree to disagree about his writing and playing. I'm not going to dismiss the way any musician finds a way to make a living and have been very impressed with some of his students I run into. You can make it as intellectual as you want but I will stand by learning to riff as the way to play rc changes and a great way to learn to riff is to, uh, learn riffs like Lester Leaps In etc.
 
#17
crd said:
You can make it as intellectual as you want but I will stand by learning to riff as the way to play rc changes and a great way to learn to riff is to, uh, learn riffs like Lester Leaps In etc.
Click to expand...
It is a reasonable enough way to get there, but you are not really learning how it works. I am into learning as many melodies as you can - as many RC heads as you can is a great place to start.
 

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