Double Bass To Fellow DB Newbies: You DO Need A Teacher!!!

[rablack]

LEGUME -

Kung Fuqua's not easily offended or even particularly stern - just passionate about the bass and possessed of a very "direct" style of communication. Since you're a new face here, take a look through the archives. Ed's been here from the beginning and he knows his sh*t.

 

[thrash_jazz]

That's what I mean - when I played DB a bit in high school, I assumed that I was doing the right thing because I was able to get a sound out of it. And that's what I would have continued to do.

At the very first lesson, I was taught how to balance the bass properly (something that wouldn't have occurred to me to do on my own) and then how to play in such a way as to make a sound that was ten times better than what I had made before.

The point is, I didn't think it was broke before, so I didn't fix it, let alone realize that there was an upgrade available.

I'm not saying - and neither is anyone else - that you CAN'T learn on your own; it's just that it isn't the quickest or most efficient way to learn. The only way that could be so is if you can identify 100% of your mistakes and know how to fix them - and if you're venturing into uncharted waters, how can you possibly know 100% of what lies ahead?

 

[James S]

I have been playing and teaching for 30 years now. And I have been fortunate enough to study with a few of the greatest bassists in the world.

Perhaps because of my age / generation, when I first wanted to learn to play music it was common to get a teacher and take lessons. Today, this "self taught" epidemic seems to be the norm. I have a problem when the questions and the answers come from the same place. To quote Einstein, "It's going to take a higher level of thinking to solve the problems created by this level of thinking".

Truly, we all find the time and money to do the most important things in our lives. Not taking lessons from a quality teacher is not being serious about your dream. No serious professional in any other field would consider "self taught". Musicians with their "artistic" views sometimes forget the work it takes to become good at anything. The majority of great musicians are not the most talented ones. They are the ones who work the hardest. And yes, we all know the exceptions (the geniuses). I assure you that we are not one of them.

Concerning technique, there are many ways to skin a cat but there are ways that definitely will not work. You can finger the bass, or hold the bow, any way you like. You have that right. However that does not make it the most efficient way.

If you are in this for the long haul, I suggest that you invest in yourself and pay for the the best teacher available. I know, I hear the excuses all the time: "But I can't afford it". GET A JOB! Earn the money!

Last week was the final week of the Berklee College Of Music 5 week program. Approximately 60 young bassists were in attendance. I asked them all, "What is the most important thing you learned here?". The overwhelming answer was " I learned that all the stuff I was doing was wrong". " I now know what to practice when I go home."

I mentioned in my opening statement that I have had the good fortune to study with some Masters of the bass. None of my lessons were free.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally posted by James S
Today, this "self taught" epidemic seems to be the norm.

I think this might be a product of the "rock" paradigm. Teenagers all over the world dream of being famous rock stars and think all they need is to be "discovered." Most of the famous rock stars have professed to never having taken a lesson. Maybe some did, maybe some didn't. But if a kid dreaming of being the next Jimmy Page thinks Jimmy Page never took a lesson why should he take a lesson? And besides, taking lessons is,"all about learning the rules." That's contrary to the "rock" attitude which is to defy authority.

In the end it comes down to whether or not you want to play music. If you just want to pose (posing is the foundation of rock), you can pose all you want without ever taking a lesson. If you want to play music you have to learn your instrument, the best way of which is to study with a teacher.

 

[thrash_jazz]

And besides, taking lessons is,"all about learning the rules." That's contrary to the "rock" attitude which is to defy authority.

Not just that - people are afraid to take lessons because they are afraid of sounding like everyone else. This is a load of BS IMHO - a good teacher will encourage you to develop your style, not hinder it.

These wind up being the people who lock themselves in rooms and practice day in and day out. If you want to do that, fine, but if you took a few lessons you'd be able to learn the same amount and still see the sun once in a while.

 

[Nick Ara]

My first post, after lurking for almost a year!

After spending some 15 years as a corporate trainer and training manager, I'd have to say that we may have technology to blame for the new trend in "self education". The availability of interactive CD's, online instruction and webex-type efforts have practically eliminated instructor led training off the map.

While its true that the software is better than ever, there's no substitute for the immediacy of a skilled instructor by your side. And, you don't need a "star" to be your teacher, as long as your instructor knows their stuff and can communicate the concepts and skills.

After teaching data comm and networking for the City University system here in NYC, I can tell you that a decent instructor is worth their weight in gold.

Bass content: I'm going to see my fellow colleague, Ron Carter at the Blue Note next week. Of course, that's where we part company (he teaches uptown, I teach downtown). Maybe he'll consider giving me lessons??

Talkbass is wonderful....what a way to get started on the URB!

Nick

 

[pea]

well ive learnt alot about peoples thoughts on lessons over the past few days, that thread i posted certainly gave some good replies from all of you. Reading it back to myself, i feel a bit like i gave out the wrong vibe to people. I promise that i am not an arrogant guy who thinks the only way to learn is by yourself!! My reasoning for the start of that thread was my experience with a bad teacher when i was at school. To start with i had a great teacher, he was so knowledgable and friendly and really helped my playing. I progressed to grade five very quickly and thought i was on my way to playing in jazz quintets and stuff like that. Then he went private and my folks couldnt afford to get me lessons anymore, so i had to resort to the free teacher that came in instead. From the start, he was quite cold towards me and didnt ecourage my desire to learn the techniques of imoprovisation in jazz. From here on i struggled, and slowly lost my technique, even my mate noticed that i was not as into it as i once was. I tried to 'self teach' myself but didnt have a clue what to do. I eventually gave up the free lessons because i lost all enthusiasm, and confidence, and at the very end quit playing my beloved trumpet as i was just annoyed with it, and the fact i had no drive and direction to get into. So i know that lessons are THE best thing ever, but i am very scared of taking up double bass lessons, cos im worried the same thing wil happen again. As i am fairly new to the double bass, i hope that i can start lessons and unlearn all the wrong stuff, and build on ideas that i already have . Thanks to all of you for sharing your veiws with a slightly lesson wary chap, I have taken all of your advise on board, and yeah Ed, were cool bro!!

thanks guys

pea

 

[wellspal]

I think this is one of the best threads yet on TalkBass. At 48 years old and being 100% self taught, I would love to find a good DB teacher in Chicagoland. Affordabillity (you look up the spelling!) is a huge factor and this would be the first year of my life I could afford it. So seriously any names would be appreciated. I do find it kind of funny that MOST standard jazz, blues, country and rock songs were originally played and written by less than educated cats.(OK, maybe not most) I think the ideal teacher knows timeless music not just technique. That would be a good thread, what is timeless? Is there a thread on that?

 

[Buddy Lee]

I think the ideal teacher knows timeless music not just technique. That would be a good thread, what is timeless?

Good music is timeless.

 

[davegr8house]

I think the ideal teacher knows timeless music not just technique.

This is true...BUT....When I was shopping for a Teacher, I made sure I found one that would teach me what I need to know, not really what I want to know. I have friends that take lessons also and from time to time I ask.."How the Lessons going"..and I get answers like..."yea man I learned whatever song".... I kind of wonder what they are really learning. Is the Teacher giving them a real Foundation to build on or just teaching them the latest Lick in there favorite song of the week. All well, my 2 cents. Shop for a Teacher that will truly Teach.

Dave

If the world didn`t suck we would all fall off.....

 

[Don Higdon]

I sound like a broken record, but I'll say it again:
EVERY classical lesson (i.e., arco) I have ever had with Linda McKnight (Manhattan School of Music) has made me a better jazz player, simply because she makes me a better bassist, not just a better classical player.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally posted by DONOSAURUS PREHISTORICUS
I sound like a broken record, but....

A wHaT? yOu MeAn A dAmAgEd CD?

 

[Don Higdon]

Respect your elders.
RECORD, as in 78 rpm.
Can't begin to tell you how much great music I heard on those things.

By the way, what's with the early posts? Are you up early, or late coming home from a gig?

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally posted by davegr8house
Is the Teacher giving them a real Foundation to build on or just teaching them the latest Lick in there favorite song of the week.

This is a great question. I have a few students from time to time (bass guitar and doublebass), and it's something I've had to deal, especially with bass guitar students.

There was a time when I had real difficulty keeping bass guitar students. Most would stop showing up after one or two lessons. These dudes weren't serious, they were interested in jamming with friends, the immage thing, etc. The last thing they wanted was to learn about music, and that was my mistake. I'd start rapping to them about scales, arpeggios, etudes, etc. and in their mind they were like, "man, I'm outta here."

I talked about this with a cat I been studying with for a few years. He basically said the key to students like that is to make them think you're teaching them what they want to know and sneak the real stuff in there.

So with this kind of student that's what I do. I ask them about the music they're like, what bassists, etc. and we work on a tune. I listen to them play their tune and point out what I think they need to work on. A lot of times it time and their small unfocused sound to start. Then maybe I'll so them some ways to make the line a little more happening, etc. etc. All the while giving them bits and pieces about *music*, showing them how something was derived from some scale, an arpeggio; explaining why it works the way it does, and so on.

I think teaching this way solves the dilemma. The student is learning what he wants, tunes; he hears (relative) rapid improvement in his playing (so he gets what he wants); after experience how a little knowledge of music cleared up some mystery, and seeing how scales and arpeggios are used in context some students begin to acquire a thirst for more and begin to see the importance of it (my mission as teacher is being fulfilled and the students continue to return.)

I'm sure there are lots of teachers only interested in teaching kids how to play their favorite songs (many probably aren't capable of much more than that), but the problem is fostered by the "students". I don't know that it's actually all bad either. Afterall, the reason anyone first takes up an instrument is to play music with others. I can't completely fault them for wanting to learn tunes right off the bat

 

[thrash_jazz]

I usually just give them what they want to know at that point, but stress that if they really knew and understood how their favourite lines were put together, they'd be better players, have more fun and appreciate the instrument far more.

There's a thing now - if a kid were to learn some f|31dy or RyKn0w tunes, for instance, he would probably have enough technique to play in a nu-metal band (ah, the irony of posting this on the DB side!) but he wouldn't be a good bassist or musician. The only way he really learned anything, besides basic technique, is if he realized he had a ways to go and started to learn some theory.

 

[Michael Case]

When I was 15 and started on the BG, I had a teacher who said "make a tape of songs you wanna learn and I'll teah you." Eventhough I was playing metal, I didn't want that I wanted to learn MUSIC I could figure out songs at home (which I did all the time). So after 3 or 4 lessons without bringing a tape I stopped. The whole experience soured me on music education for a while. Now when I have BG students I teach them music and relate it to music they like. I believe if you are paying someone to teach you music, that's what you should get, not tunes.

 

[David Kaczorowski]

Originally posted by mike da mook
I believe if you are paying someone to teach you music, that's what you should get, not tunes.

Most 15 year olds don't want to learn music. They realize they suck and the need help but they don't realize that comes in the form of actual music learnin'. If someone started lessons with me and said he wants to learn how to play the bass and make music on it that would be fantastic, I'd give them the tools and show them how to apply it. 99.9% of the time though the kids there because his mom told him she wouldn't buy him the bass if he didn't take lessons, or the dude can't really articulate why he's there, he just knows he wants to be better but has no idea that it takes work.

 

[pea]

this seems to appear alot. as I research into players i like more they all seem to be into classical lessons. one guy, sneaky, from fingathing is grade 8 in classical and his lines are frickin dope!! play on sneaks!!

 

[Howard K]

Having read the vast majority of these newbie DB, I feel a) scared b) scared of not finding a teacher and c) more excited

So, the million dollar question is how can I find a teacher in South East UK - ideally in Berkshire so I dont have to travel too far?

I've done some preliminary web searching, but cant find a thing.

Any ideas or possible start points very very welcome...

I'm going to look at DBs on Saturday for long-term hire - ie, 4 months to start with, to see how I get on.

 

[McGryff]

Congrats, Howard! I've had my DB for about 4 months now and I'm loving it more each day. I'm sure you won't regret joining our ranks. Wish I could help with a teacher in your area, but I've only been to England once, and it was just for a week. Just keep searching. Check into local university music programs, or even local symphonies for teachers.