Double Bass To Fellow DB Newbies: You DO Need A Teacher!!!

[Damon Rondeau]

My first post over here -- I've mostly been hanging in the setup and repair area. I'd like to make a point I think hasn't been made yet.

First, here's my credentials ('cause it's relevant): EB player about 25 years, DB about 5. Lots of live playing experience; R&B, country, rock, original-no-category. I'm mostly self-taught, though I have had the occasional benefit of the Laying On Of Teacherly Hands.

I fundamentally agree with everything that's been said about the perils of being self-taught. Slow. Physically dangerous. Confusing. Fuqua was spot on, as usual (side note: hope you don't mind me drastically summarizing you, Ed, but I think you said: "IF your goal is something like excellence, then WHY NOT do what it takes?" The IF is a big part of that equation and what follows from it.)

Here's what I think you can only do yourself, without a teacher: play music. Make it every day. Find others to play with, and play lots. Consciously try and get better at playing TOGETHER, taking on tougher tunes and nailing them through (occasionally abrasive) polish. If you only play bass, learn a chording instrument (piano or guitar) and learn tunes. Play them lots. Sing. Record yourself and play with yourself if you have to!

If you do all this stuff AND study with a teacher well, sh*t, you're on the way!

The point is, if you wanna be a musician, be a musician. Don't forget that when you're practising all the stuff your teacher set you up with.

cheers from the not-so-frozen-north,
Damon

 

[Aspwikks]

well, hi all, this is my first post, as you couldve guessed im new heer and im new as well on the contrabass.
sorry if this 4 years bump up is annoying (the last msg on the thread is 2002)
i've read this entire topic and found it more than interesting (as a matter of fact i think im gonna get me a teacher after all you guys have said) but i still have a few issues id like to see unwrapped.

i've been playing guitar for 3 years, all self thaught, even though i wouldve loved to have a teacher, but my dream has always been that thumpy upright bass. i finally managed to get one paid for me (yeah im a rich kid) and, as you guys might know, its pretty hard to just sit there and watch it until you get the right teaching, so i started playing with my own out of the way technique (which is for sure not the right one) and it sounds pretty good playing with guitars and accordeon. ok now down to the questions:

by watching pros, i've noticed two distinct kinds of playing, the one where you stand besides the bass and slap your left hand flat on the strings (mostly popular music like bluegrass or klezmer or gypsy swing or ...) and the more classical style, standing behind the bass with the left hand holding it more in the cello manner, using the tip of the fingers. what do you guys think about that?

and second, i heard that you could damage your hand (left) pretty badly if you didnt use the proper technique on the contrabass. should i be afraid of that or wut? should i keep playing with my friends or stop right now and wait for proper lessons (which i wont be having before october) ?

neways, thx for any answers you guys might have to this.
bass is cool, and wood is even better

 

[bfitz]

"...I’ve noticed two distinct kinds of playing, the one where you stand besides the bass and slap your left hand flat on the strings (mostly popular music like bluegrass or klezmer or gypsy swing or ...) and the more classical style, standing behind the bass with the left hand holding it more in the cello manner, using the tip of the fingers. what do you guys think about that?"

well, for me and what I think to be proper technique, you want to curve your fingers. as far as standing in front or behind the bass, I’m not sure what you mean. when I stand I have the bass leaning into me a little off to my side, and I use a bent endpin kind of weird to do that (I can't really describe it). one of the biggest things that teachers or other players have tried to fix in my playing is the straight or flat finger thing that you are talking about. I am just now getting to the point where it isn't so bad and I can hear an improvement in the sound, the note comes through clearer to me. I guess it has to do with stopping the note completely.

"...I heard that you could damage your hand (left) pretty badly if you didn’t use the proper technique on the contrabass. should I be afraid of that or wut? should I keep playing with my friends or stop right now and wait for proper lessons (which I wont be having before October) ?"

I have heard that it can be done to either hand. I have been fortunate enough that even though I have some bad techniques they have not done any damage. this doesn't mean that I am not trying to fix them though. I say keep playing just be careful. if it hurts, stop. also, if at all possible, try to find someone before October if you can. it doesn't have to be you permanent teacher, just some one who could set down with you and give you some pointers. that way you don't have to worry as much about bad technique hurting you and you won't have as much to fix when you do find a teacher.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

It should also be noted that sometimes, (pizz) players play with different parts of the LH fingers depending on the kind of sound desired. Curved fingers with the tip of the finger on the string produces a very clean bell like tone, while flatter fingers with the middle of the pad on the string produces more growl. I think a teacher is a good idea because they can hip you to things like this while showing you ways to do them in the long run without hurting yourself in the process.

 

[damonsmith]

It should also be noted that sometimes, (pizz) players play with different parts of the LH fingers depending on the kind of sound desired. Curved fingers with the tip of the finger on the string produces a very clean bell like tone, while flatter fingers with the middle of the pad on the string produces more growl. I think a teacher is a good idea because they can hip you to things like this while showing you ways to do them in the long run without hurting yourself in the process.

-My primary teacher, Lisle Ellis was really great about showing me that kind of stuff - it is really important.
It is well known around here by now that my opinion is that all bass players should study a basic classical method and all that bass players that should practice with the bow.
However, I think it is just as important that we do not lose sight of the music we picked up the bass to play in the first place. As well as placing equal importance on learning the idomatic techniques of that music.

It can sometimes help to create distinctions between practicing and playing and even between practicing the bass and practicing music.

 

[Aspwikks]

thx guys thats very helpful, ill try and check an experienced guy out

 

[waltzfordebby]

just had my first lesson with a guy named roger shew (who studied with rufus reid for some time). I have to say i haven't learned so much about the instrument in an hours time. It takes the cake over watching a year of youtube videos of the greats. You can practice your heart out but if you're using the plank the wrong way you will never get to the level you could be at if you just took the 10 minutes and did some research into the teachers in the area

 

[Alex Spradling]

Currently, I have 3 teachers...

 

[djero44]

Well, it's my first foray on the other side here, after a lot of love for the EB forums. I have read a lot of information today, which has both strengthened my desire to play DB and also called up some reservations.

Firstly, after getting fanatic about playing the fretless electric I started having trouble with my hands/arms this spring and have had to re-approach my playing style and practice time. I'm doing well with that, but have yet to return to 100% and wonder if this is something i'll be dealing with for some time to come. Hearing about the rigorous physical demands of getting fluent on the DB definitely makes me a bit anxious. Yet still I have a very strong desire to learn the instrument, and a willingness to be patient with my process and body.

Second, I live in a very rural area, and although i'm far from opposed to having a good teacher, I think i'm going to have a difficult time doing that without driving 60 miles or more. There are some upright players in my area, though pretty much exclusively bluegrass. The only other player I know locally isn't someone i'd want to sit down with personally, though maybe for some pointers. I know he's a jazz player, but i'm unaware of what level. Anyhow, I do have some connections to the classical world in Grand Junction and probably can find a very worthy instructor there, but i'm not sure when this will be practical in my busy schedule. Perhaps it would be worth it to study at least enough in the beginning to avoid the most serious pitfalls of technique and get started on the right path, then continuing on? That may be the best I can do in the near future.

For now, i'm a very happy EB player and i'm not going to rush into this process. I'm going to take time to try out as many instruments as I can, and even have had one offered to me as a loaner by a really sweet lady who plays with a local bluegrass band, Sweet Sunny South. I think it needs a little tlc, nothing major, but it could be very good for me to get a feel for it and see if it's really something I want to sink my teeth into. I have a strong gut feeling it is. It's one of those things i've been saying to myself for years, 'well if only I had the space and time (&money), I really want to learn that..... We used to have a luthier in the area who built uprights, unfortunately he has moved away. He would have been a great resource. For now i'll have to do the best I can.

Anyhow, bump to an old and very good thread. I'm super glad this community is here and I might be among the ranks sooner than later!

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Even if you made that 2-hour return drive 4 or 5 times A YEAR, it would be much better than no teacher at all.

 

[djero44]

I'm starting to get very excited about it, even dreamed about learning last night. We had an amazing musician visit last year who had been studying the cello in college, he really made me want to learn to bow and learn classical technique. Now I have a place in my house where i'm envisioning a double bass, surely it will happen in time.

Winters a good for me, i'm hoping it all comes together. I will certainly be willing to take the drive to get proper instruction. If it works, perhaps I can do longer more intensive sessions to make up for the long drive. I have been such a largely self-taught musician the last 20 years, it is nice to be opening to a new approach. I certainly don't want to reinvent the wheel, and appreciate all the centuries (!) of creation on this instrument and family of instruments.

 

[Steve Killingsworth]

Paonia Colorado--I came through there in 1985 on my way home from a mule deer hunt. For some reason or another I never forgot that name.

To get back to your point--I've been fortunate enough to spend time with two great teachers. However, the closest one lived about 90 miles away. The other was close to 150 miles away. My time with them was worth every minute and every drop of gas. Obviously, weekly lessons were out of the question but the way we worked it out was a long lesson (several hours with one of them) and plenty of "homework." I usually garnered enough from one lesson to last several months. They gave me a solid foundation and enabled me to begin exploring the instrument on my own.

 

[tweek84]

I have also just finished my first DB lesson yesrterday and i learned alot in a 30 minute period. I have been playing bass guitar for about 8 years and am "self taught" and have now found out that my pinky position/ technique is all worng, turns out i could have caused serious damage to it such as trigger finger or carpultunnel, so now i am beating myself up trying to re-teach my hand to do what it is supposed to. These lessons are the best thing i could have done.

 

[Don Higdon]

From another thread:

. Ages ago I posted a thread about buzz on my 4th finger - bigolbassguy and Paul Warburton helped me out on that but I still couldn't fix it. A month or so down the line it's completely gone with the help of practice and some dark magic performed by my bass teacher which fixed it in about 5 seconds by moving my elbow slightly and other mystical things...

This is what a forum can't do, because we can't see the poster...which is why the older guys say what we do about finding a teacher.

 

[BassTart]

I play both classical and improvisational music (I hesitate to say jazz because I am not sure what jazz is ). Classical training gives you the tools to improvise.

Teachers can identify problems or "tendencies" in one's playing that are impossible to identify on one's own. Physical advise about stance, or bow position are often helpful.

In the playing (the music) itself is where it gets subjective and interesting. I have had teachers say that I have a tendency rhythmically to do this or that or "odd harmonic choice"...

One should embrace those observations even when they are made in less than a complimentary way. The teacher is human and is often expressing "taste". I have though learned to observe those very personal tendencies and have become able to suppress them or go with them completely.. ie turn it off and on. Never eliminate them even if that is what the teacher seems to be suggesting!!!!! Simply be aware of them.

What they have identified are the personal nuances in my playing. Finding one's own voice is a major goal. Someone with different aspirations or feelings about music can often inadvertently be the best help.

 

[kindofblue10]

Well, I had my first DB lesson yesterday and the first thing I found out was that pretty much everything I'd ever done on it was completely WRONG!!! Learning to play DB is much more difficult (if not impossible) to do from just watching someone or reading a book on it. There are too many bad habits that are too easy to adopt.

If I had bought a DB first and tried to learn on my own, I likely would have destroyed both of my hands and forearms in the process, and still not learned half of what I did in an hour yesterday.

So, as has been said here a hundred times: On DB, you NEED a teacher. There are far too many subtle details to learn, which could take years to pick up on your own.

Starting a new instrument sure is humbling, but it's also pretty exciting!

I agree. Electric bass is just one of those instruments that you could probably get by without proper instruction, although you can usually get a hell of a lot better if you do take lessons. Upright bass, on the other hand, is a totally different world. You just need a teacher to learn to play, unless you're one of those miracles who were just "born to play", which, face it, 99.9% of us are not, you need a teacher to prevent yourself from picking up bad habits, because things are a lot harder to fix on upright than they are on electric.

 

[Anonymatt]

In the playing (the music) itself is where it gets subjective and interesting. I have had teachers say that I have a tendency rhythmically to do this or that or "odd harmonic choice"...

Oh man, I get this kind of thing from my teacher all the time. It's stuff I'd never see on my own. It's never "don't do that," just a comment that has me explore something further with analysis or to make me a little more conscious when practicing certain things.

A lot of the benefit I get from my teacher is discipline. Not wanting to look like a major a-hole on Saturday is a great motivator for focused practice!

For me, when I'm improvising, it's a little easier to be inspired when reacting to someone else. So goes the educational process too, I think.