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Tone sucker inventory.

pickles

pickles

Gold Supporting Member
Mar 23, 2000
10,454
2,836
Ventura, CA
#1
I've been messing with effects more lately and having a lot of fun, but I have been detecting a good bit of "tone suck".

I get my best clean sound by plugging my bass into my head with a single 12' high quality cable, so I decided to inventory where the tone suck is coming from by A/Bing that direct-connect sound with one pedal at a time to hear what effect they have. I've arranged them from least tone-suck to most, where all effects are run in bypass mode:

- Radial Bigshot I/O. True bypass switcher, I don't think this is sucking much tone at all, BUT if you use it with a passive bass and an additional cable, it'll be like you're running a really long cable since this does not have a buffer stage. With an active bass, no big deal.

- the additional cable does contribute a bit to tone suck. When I use the Radial and A/B a short george L's with a spectraflex 12', there is a significant difference. Oddly, I think the george L's makes the sound brighter than direct-connect (maybe loosing a bit of lows?), while the spectraflex makes it darker than direct-connect as you would expect. But pretty subtle stuff, but it is there.

- Sansamp BDDI. Hardly has an effect at all, but there is a subtle loss of warmth and character. Might just be the extra cable.

- Sadowsky Preamp/DI. Very slightly more difference than the BDDI. Makes the highs sound a little drier.

- EBS effects. These have a noticeable tone drain and a slight volume drop. :( bummer since the effects are killer.

- Trace Elliot SMX. It breaks my heart since I LOVE the dynamics processing, but this thing is the biggest tone sucker on my board.

I'm considering going back to being a cable->amp guy, unless I can find some more effects with a tone-suck rating in the range of the Radial and Sansamp. But even then, I think all this extra cable is hurting my tone, and a great clean tone is the most important thing to me.

Would running things in an effects loop help? Other solutions?
 
#2
I'd hazard a guess that what amp you are using plays a large role in this also. I did a 3 peice gig last night with drums, acoustic guitar, and bass. Since I was going to be taking a few solos and there was a massive amount of sonic space open, I did something unusual for myself. I popped my SABDDI in front of my head. Normally I use zilch in the way of effects. I noticed a marked loss of high end when the pedal was not engaged. It sounded like my strings were very dead rather than just broken in. After the first set I yanked that sucker out and went back to straight into the head. This wasn't just all my imagination either. The drummer looked at me after the first song of the second set and told me that I sounded clearer. I hadn't mentioned anything to him prior to that.

The head was a thunderfunk 550. I don't think that that head has a buffered input. I know that it pops like a sonofabee when I switch back and forth between active and passive. I assume that what I noticed was a buffer or something along those lines with the SABDDI. Then again I know virtually NOTHING about effects. I just don't ever use them.

My SABDDI is back in the bag to only be pulled for ampless gigs now.
 
#3
If you love your pedals, try setting them each on individual bypass loops. I'm not sure how many EBS pedals you're running, but it seems like you could leave the Sansamp out of the loop, and obviously the Radial wouldn't go in the loop. That leaves the Sadowsky, the EBS pedals and the Trace Elliot. I imagine you could get this done with a 5 loop strip.
 
#5
I have 15 pedals in total on my board and am able to get away with very little tone suck. All of my modulation pedals are in a bypass loop.

I have a blendable looper (Barge Concepts VFB2) en route which will keep my overdrives out of the loop until they are needed, and pretty much everything else is either true bypass, or has a good buffer.

I own a Sans Amp and noticed as soon as I bought it that it was sucking tone when bypassed. If it was the only pedal I was using, it wouldn't be too bad but added to a chain of effects, it can be a problem.

I would also recommend a multi loop pedal such as the Loop Master units. It doesnt have to be the very first pedal in the chain. This way you can have a pedal with a good buffer in line beforehand and then keep all of your tone sucking pedals out of the signal path until needed.
 
#6
Crabby said:
I have 15 pedals in total on my board and am able to get away with very little tone suck. All of my modulation pedals are in a bypass loop.

I have a blendable looper (Barge Concepts VFB2) en route which will keep my overdrives out of the loop until they are needed, and pretty much everything else is either true bypass, or has a good buffer.

I own a Sans Amp and noticed as soon as I bought it that it was sucking tone when bypassed. If it was the only pedal I was using, it wouldn't be too bad but added to a chain of effects, it can be a problem.

I would also recommend a multi loop pedal such as the Loop Master units. It doesnt have to be the very first pedal in the chain. This way you can have a pedal with a good buffer in line beforehand and then keep all of your tone sucking pedals out of the signal path until needed.
Click to expand...


15??...good lord...do you gig with that board?

I have 9 pedals on my "play toy" board, but I seldom gig it. My gig board typically has 3 pedals (tuner, chorus, and a DI)..sometimes an auto wah...

I agree with you on the Sansamp point...There's a definate tonal coloration that happens with the BDDI...Thats why I prefer the Tonebone over it. Plus I don't use OD all that often....but I still take the BDDI out from time to time.
 
#7
Tone-suck has always drive me nuts!!! I first really noticed it when I started using a Mu-Tron. Problem is, I love the Tron so much, I can't live without it! Well, I can, but...

I found a solution to my high-freq losses a long time ago. The VHT Valvulator. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I know, I know, it looks like a big expensive gimmick. But I'm telling you, the thing works! It solved my multi-pedal problems and it solves long cable and ground loop issues.

I've A/B'd my board with & without the VHT and the results never stop surprising me. If you're really obsessive about playing dynamics (like me)- the VHT makes playing through my pedals feel like straight to the amp. I swear on all that is holy.;)

The next step to perfecting my set-up is a true bypass looper. I still can't decide how many loop "channels" I want, but again with the Valvulator, I don't have to sweat all the extra switches & cable.

Consequently, here's a link I found here on good ol' TB that adresses a lot of the stuff in this thread: http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/diyhome.htm
 
#8
I became a snob after feeling tone-suck hit hard with my Boss pedals. The Boss buffer doesn't react well to my bass.

My solution? Mod all pedals that you can't do without (love them, but they suck tone) to true-bypass, or get a looper. Otherwise, pick effects with true-bypass as a major requirement. For instance, I got a DOD FX91 this week that I can't stop playing, but I feel the tone suck. Solution: I'm ordering parts to mod it this week. :)
 
#11
KarateKid25 said:
My effects chain is about 17 effects long at the moment. I get an overall volume drop by about an hour if that makes sense. EG) The volume that used to be at 5 o'clock is now closer to 6 on the dial. Other than that my tone is fairly intact. Nothing to get all anal over anyway.
Click to expand...

+1

imho you can compensate 99% of your "tone sucking" with a little eq/boost combo at the end of the chain
 
#13
I did some experimenting this weekend as well, as my pedalboard is in disarray, while waiting for my custom switcher and X2 to come in.

I didn't find my MultiComp to suck much tone, but I did bump the gain a little bit so it makes up for anything lost.
I also was running the WRONG EB VP Jr., which the guy at GC told me was the active version, but oh yeah, it's not. I can't believe (naturally!) how much better and "alive" my bass sounds. Been using it the past year or so like this... :scowl:

I run my TU-2 out of my volume pedal, as that thing (and yeah I tried it again) sucks "life" like no other. I wouldn't say it kills the signal, but it's definitely like using a $5 cable vs a Monster (and yes, there is an audible difference, at least to my ears! :p) where it just doesn't feel or sound as "big". Definitely not one to leave in line.

From my volume it then hits (before I got the MultiComp) my LS-2, which is pretty darn transparent at least to my ears. Not true-true bypass, but 100 times better than most Boss pedals. Everything else runs in that loop, so I only have 3 buffers before hitting my amp, and those two A/B'd are nigh indistinguishable.
 
#14
I have an MXR Micro Amp as the last pedal in line before going back to the amp. Its always on and is set to boost just enough to restore any loss of volume from having lots of pedals. It works like a charm and does not add noise or effect my tone in any way that I can detect.
 
#15
pickles said:
I've been messing with effects more lately and having a lot of fun, but I have been detecting a good bit of "tone suck".

I get my best clean sound by plugging my bass into my head with a single 12' high quality cable, so I decided to inventory where the tone suck is coming from by A/Bing that direct-connect sound with one pedal at a time to hear what effect they have. I've arranged them from least tone-suck to most, where all effects are run in bypass mode:

- Radial Bigshot I/O. True bypass switcher, I don't think this is sucking much tone at all, BUT if you use it with a passive bass and an additional cable, it'll be like you're running a really long cable since this does not have a buffer stage. With an active bass, no big deal.

- the additional cable does contribute a bit to tone suck. When I use the Radial and A/B a short george L's with a spectraflex 12', there is a significant difference. Oddly, I think the george L's makes the sound brighter than direct-connect (maybe loosing a bit of lows?), while the spectraflex makes it darker than direct-connect as you would expect. But pretty subtle stuff, but it is there.

- Sansamp BDDI. Hardly has an effect at all, but there is a subtle loss of warmth and character. Might just be the extra cable.

- Sadowsky Preamp/DI. Very slightly more difference than the BDDI. Makes the highs sound a little drier.

- EBS effects. These have a noticeable tone drain and a slight volume drop. :( bummer since the effects are killer.

- Trace Elliot SMX. It breaks my heart since I LOVE the dynamics processing, but this thing is the biggest tone sucker on my board.

I'm considering going back to being a cable->amp guy, unless I can find some more effects with a tone-suck rating in the range of the Radial and Sansamp. But even then, I think all this extra cable is hurting my tone, and a great clean tone is the most important thing to me.

Would running things in an effects loop help? Other solutions?
Click to expand...
I know that the Keeley co. has true bypass on their pedals so you may want to look into them...
 
#16
Lebowsky said:
+1

imho you can compensate 99% of your "tone sucking" with a little eq/boost combo at the end of the chain
Click to expand...

I disagree. Unless you manage to find the exact frequency and filter type to compensate for all the RLC and active artifacts that are introduced you will not have the same sound. Boosting at different frequencies than are being cut just makes things worse. I'm very picky about tone.
 
#17
Its interesting you guys felt extreme tone suck on the BDDI. I definitely thought it was better than the EBS pedals, but I'll test again to see if I still feel that way.

What cables are you guys using? If you're hanging a beat up old 20 footer on the back side of the BDDI that could be part of the issue.
 
#18
pickles said:
I disagree. Unless you manage to find the exact frequency and filter type to compensate for all the RLC and active artifacts that are introduced you will not have the same sound. Boosting at different frequencies than are being cut just makes things worse. I'm very picky about tone.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean, Pickles.

For the tone purist - adding artificial eq at the end of a signal chain for the purpose of "correcting" missing frequencies - is kind of taboo. Basically, you're just boosting noise in that frequency range, along wth whatever tone is still left at that eq point.

As always, if it works for you, then great! :)

I have a feeling that Pickles & I are more from the same camp. For instance, if I found myself about to employ a Noise Supressor - I'd have to remove the offending effects instead. Or put in a bypassable loop & just accept the noise when the effect was on.

Same goes for compression that stays on all the time. Apart from screwing with your playing nuances - it's usually a sign of something wrong upstream if you need it all the time. (Recording situations excepted, but then you'd probably not be using a $150 -$200 pedal for that)

I do kind of understand boosting the overall level of your signal post -effects. There's always a "speet spot" when driving a preamp/amp. The trick is, being able to bypass everything easily without doing a "tap-dance" on your board!

That's just how I've come to approach tone & pedal issues. YMMV!

:hiding:
 

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