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Double Bass Tonedexter 2.0 firmware
- Thread starter Eyermann
- Start date
OK, so I own a ToneDexter now, flashed with 2.01 bass firmware. I'm trying to find the right mic, mic placement, training techniques. Seems like this could go on for weeks, so I'm open to suggestions from anyone who has had good success.
My best result so far:
@James May, are you watching this thread? Any suggestions?
My best result so far:
- Shure Beta 98HC, dynamic bell mic
- K&K DBT on the bridge
- 2" off the deck
- slightly above the bridge, between the bridge feet
- [possibly crucially, see below] fixed to the instrument so the distance between instrument and mic is absolutely uniform throughout the sample, to the millimeter
- All level setting and tone training done with arco open D only, as evenly as possible. This is my best arco string
- Any pizz technique in the training phase produces a horrible thwappy map. Yuck. Arco maps seem better, even for pizz use
- Any use of the Gage Lifeline
- Dynamic mics seem to produce cleaner maps, less hiss, more warm tone, but not a lot of detail
- my normally dead flat omni condenser reference mic (that sounds terrific for recording, BTW) produces maps that sound like crap under all circumstances. Can't make this work at all. The maps sound quanky and squarky through the mids with little bass information and a horrible hiss over it all, just to round out the horribleness.
- Rode NT5 condensers, also normally great sounding for recording, produce horrid maps, with more or less the same problems as the reference omni, irrespective of placement.
- I've even tried the matched pair of NT5s through a mixer, then into the mic input of the TD, but no luck. Sounds horrible.
@James May, are you watching this thread? Any suggestions?
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I haven’t tried the new firmware but I had the same result with my röde nt5.
I’ll give it a new try with another mic!
Well, on the ToneDexter website the K&K Double Big Twin is listed as a pick-up that doesn't work well with ToneDexter...
Ya, I saw that @statsc, but my experience has been different. I couldn't get any acceptable results with the Gage Lifeline under any circumstances, but the K&K / Shure Beta is not bad. Certainly usable, but I'm hoping for better than merely usable. Seems like there's still potential there. Just need to find that magical mic / placement / pickup / bass combo. Bass nerds are relentless, so I'm sure someone out there will have some useful suggestions.
Fishman Full Circle or similar types of pickups gives you nice and full sounding results with most microphones. I agree that the Røde Nt5 isn't the best microphone for Tonedexter on acoustic bass. It sounds nasal and without punch compared to most other mics.
The Neumann TLM 103 has given me the best results so far.
The Neumann TLM 103 has given me the best results so far.
Ya @Kristian, long story, but my very first map when I first busted the Dexter out of the box was at a friend's studio with his NT5, just ahead of a rehearsal. That was all a bit hurried so the results weren't great, but I see now that the resulting crap sounding map wasn't an anomaly. Condensers at a distance just seem to not work as a category.
@Eyermann, just looked up that Neumann & for that kind of money, I sure hope that mic sounds great. Just out of pure scientific curiosity, where did you place that for your sample?
I don't think that expensive microphones works better. Some just works with your instrument and the algorithm. You don't have to buy the microphone and can try different ones out. Large diapraghm mics. gives me a fuller sound compared to smaller ones.
I got great wavemaps with the mic. off axis to the G-side, but also higher up pointing towards the fingerboard. Always keep the mic a little off axis to the bass in all directions.
I got great wavemaps with the mic. off axis to the G-side, but also higher up pointing towards the fingerboard. Always keep the mic a little off axis to the bass in all directions.
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Ya, you're probably right @Eyermann. At least with the cardioid dynamic mics, map quality seems highly sensitive to mic placement. This seems like an extremely precise operation. And probably specific to each set of equipment. Thanks anyway for the helpful advice about your experience. Instinct says a large diaphragm condenser should work for capturing all bass sounds, so I'll give the NT2A another shot. Now I see a sample size of one map probably wasn't enough to write that mic off.
An interesting wrinkle in all of this is that maps captured with the K&K DBT and the Shure Beta are sounding more than reasonably lifelike now, but if I use those same maps through the Gage Lifeline, the sound is really quite warm and lovely. The Gage is a bit darker generally than the K&K, so there isn't a lot of string detail and you lose some of the air, but I feel like that thick sound might actually be good in an ensemble. Playing with a 3 piece tonight, so that's a chance to test this theory. Stand by.
An interesting wrinkle in all of this is that maps captured with the K&K DBT and the Shure Beta are sounding more than reasonably lifelike now, but if I use those same maps through the Gage Lifeline, the sound is really quite warm and lovely. The Gage is a bit darker generally than the K&K, so there isn't a lot of string detail and you lose some of the air, but I feel like that thick sound might actually be good in an ensemble. Playing with a 3 piece tonight, so that's a chance to test this theory. Stand by.
I just got a Tonedexter, and am eager to play with it. I upgraded to the latest firmware last night.
For me, first try worked really well. I'll experiment some more, but it seems easy to get a lifelike sound. The CH2 did sound noticeably quieter than the Bypass. (Doing this helped me rehear how the Full Circle is actually a pretty good pickup, especially in a band context). The closest I'll get to a "band" situation for a while is multi-tracking with virtual bands. I'll make do with that..
For me, first try worked really well. I'll experiment some more, but it seems easy to get a lifelike sound. The CH2 did sound noticeably quieter than the Bypass. (Doing this helped me rehear how the Full Circle is actually a pretty good pickup, especially in a band context). The closest I'll get to a "band" situation for a while is multi-tracking with virtual bands. I'll make do with that..
I've yet to try the update, but I agree with the prior post that more expensive mics are not necessarily better with this thing. After a recording session the engineer was nice enough to let me make some maps with some high end mics. A Neumann and an old ribbon of some sort that was a prized possession and favorite of his. Both turned out ok, but I ended up using maps made with a small line audio cm on gigs
About high end mics: Better mics need better pre-amps to take advantage of their better capabilities. Many of popular digital audio interfaces are roughly $50/channel. A unit like the Tonedexter likely has a lower quality mic preamp than those interfaces, and likely won't allow a $1000 mic of a certain type to perform better than a $300 version of that mic type. It is a floor pedal after all. Mics in the $100 to $400 range will probably be the go-to range.
Here's a crazy thought: has anyone tried running output from a mic and a piezo into Pro Tools, processing the mic track to taste there, then running the two output tracks back into the Dexter? The tracks just need to be synchronous, there's no requirement they come live from the instrument in real time if I'm understanding the process correctly (?).
Maybe you could try running those fancy mics through a Felix... or something similar?
It’s not crazy, I am sure many others have thought and maybe even tried the same thing, I will probably attempt it next time I’ve got a couple hours to kill.
I imagine it will work, but possibly with less than ideal results in most cases. I would think the ToneDexter likely responds differently to the true signal from the mic/pickup vs a processed and line level recreation from a secondary audio interface. The ToneDexter training sequence and its results also seem to be somewhat unpredictable, so it would likely take a lot of trial and error to dial in a good sample and train it to the ToneDexter accurately so that your pickup responds well.
The reason the effort could be worth it for me, is to see if I can possibly get some good Dex using plugin based mic models with my Townsend Labs Sphere and Slate VMS mics. Because for some reason, in 2020, the thing I really want is a digital mic model of another digital mic model of my acoustic instrument, controlled by my acoustic instrument in real time. Actually, I want 22 slots full of them.
- Jul 19, 2000
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- Disclosures
- Owner/President, Gollihur Music LLC
This is something I've been experimenting with, with the blessing (and instruction) of James May. The idea is that you can then "tweak" what the TD hears, and make adjustments in the EQ on your DAW and then re-train with the same files, to get more optimal results.
So say you create a WaveMap that has a bit of a midrange "bump" that you don't like. Go back to the DAW, EQ a little midrange out of the Mic signal, and re-train.
Make sense?
My difficulties have been in gain-staging the output of my DAW to be an appropriate instrument input level. I have a Radial re-amp kit, I may have to break it out.
Hi
I posted this a while a go:
Using the ToneDexter with an electric upright bass
And meanwhile Audio Sprockets also posted a downloadable doc where they explain this setup, they do it slightly different than I did.
Check it out!
Daniel
So glad I saw this thread. The Tonedexter has been sitting in the closet waiting for me to decide if I was going to sell it.
Main reason I bought it was to use with the Yamaha SLB200 but even using Reaper I just couldn’t get the tone I wanted.
Upgraded to v2.06 and did 2 quick spots recording the acoustic DB and a condenser ( one pizz and one arco). Then I tried it on the Yamaha. Holy smokes! Sounds so good. Gives me a reason to pull out the Yamaha and the Tonedexter. I’ll bring it to rehearsal tonight and see how it sits in the mix.
I can’t imagine how good the sound might get if I match the pickups in Reaper and actually try and tweak it a little.
Main reason I bought it was to use with the Yamaha SLB200 but even using Reaper I just couldn’t get the tone I wanted.
Upgraded to v2.06 and did 2 quick spots recording the acoustic DB and a condenser ( one pizz and one arco). Then I tried it on the Yamaha. Holy smokes! Sounds so good. Gives me a reason to pull out the Yamaha and the Tonedexter. I’ll bring it to rehearsal tonight and see how it sits in the mix.
I can’t imagine how good the sound might get if I match the pickups in Reaper and actually try and tweak it a little.
