Tools and techniques for carving and sanding without finger pain

[dwizum]

Hi everyone,

I'm barely middle aged but arthritis and other issues are already setting in. When building instruments, this makes anything requiring a firm grasp and/or repetitive motions to be difficult and painful. I'd like to get some ideas for techniques or tools I can adopt to help mitigate this, because I don't want to be at the point of thinking about giving up in 5 or 10 years because it hurts too much. I'm sure some of you have faced this. Or you've got your processes down so well that it's just not an issue.

Things I try to do that have helped:

I try to use power tools where possible. I use a random orbit sander with thick, soft sanding pads for a lot of rough and finish sanding. I also use sanding drums either in a drill press or handheld drill. I don't have any other power sanding equipment, but this stuff does OK. The biggest problem seems to be sanding around tight curves or compound surfaces, such as the body to neck joint in a neckthrough. I don't have power tools that work in those areas so I end up sanding by hand. I also do final finish sanding completely by hand because the random orbit sander seems prone to grinding little circles into your project even when it has fine paper on it. Having different stiffnesses and shapes of sanding pads helps with finish sanding but I still end up with sore fingers.

For carving, I recently tried one of those 4" donut carvers that goes on an angle grinder. It's perfect for body contours. I really love it and I can tell I will use it for just about all body carving. I am not sure about using it on a neck because it's hard to get a consistent "glide" along a long length and I feel like it would be hard to make consistent facets with it. I do most of my neck work with a shinto rasp which I really love, but even that thing induces some pain. Also, same as with sanding, I don't really have any tools that do well carving in little nooks or compound corners. I have a handful of files and gouges but there always seems to be areas that are impossible to reach.

So, for starters, I guess I'm focusing on a few challenges:

- finish sanding (without the random-orbit-induced spirals)
- sanding in tight corners
- neck carving
- carving in tight corners

Anyone have tools or tips on doing these without finger pain?

 

[honza992]

I've had on/off hand problems, so like you I use power tools whenever I can. Building flat top (ie non archtop) instruments makes a huge difference. Other than that here are the things that work for me:

- the 3M Stikit Gold sticky sandpaper is fantastic. I find that there is some sanding that can only be done by hand (inside cutaways etc) and sticking a small piece of Stikit to you fingers mean you only have to do the sanding, the 'gripping' is done by the adhesive. If you haven't tried it, I really recommend it. It is very very expensive (and isn't even available in Europe AFAIK), but if you can afford it then get some. 120 and 220 I use on every build. 320 is also very useful for first stage finishing. The other alternative is to use normal sandpaper and stick that to your fingers using double sided tape. It works, but not as well.

- If you use scrapers, get the Veritas cabinet scraper holder. I get tendinitis in my thumbs, so can't really use cabinet scrapers without this.

- A really high quality file or two for neck carving. Everyone has their preferences, but I think the Iwasaki files are incredible. i use these for neck carving and they can take a rough neck join to 120g level smoothness.

- Don't over sand. I read of people who sand way way too much. I sand to 220g unless its a really hard wood like ebony in which case I go to 320. I read of people who sand to 400 or 600 or even further, and I really struggle to see the point (though that may depend on what finish you use)

- I use a small random orbit for my front/back body sanding, both wood and finish. Frequently it throws up the little circle trails that you mention, but as long as they are 320 or finer I ignore them. I find that the finish is quite capable of filling those in so that they are invisible. I just continue with my finishing schedule and they disappear. As long as they are the natural sanding patterns, rather than big corns of dried finish, then you should be ok. I keep a piece of (cutoff) carpet on my table where I am sanding. I sand the guitar for no more than 3 seconds then I transfer the ROS to the carpet and 'sand' that for a couple of seconds. Even with a ROS hooked up to extraction, I find that powdered finish builds up very quickly on the paper (and that with a festool sander and high quality Granat paper). The carpet does a great job of getting rid of any finish on the sandpaper, a bit like using a rubber on a drum or oscillating sander. At the first sign of the circular patterns being left on the finish I stop and get rid of them with a wooden stick.

- For neck carving I find having a variety of tools helps. So I can go from a file to a rasp to a spokeshave within a few mintues. They all do roughly the same thing, but use different muscles. If you 'shoe-shine' sand, then use a long piece of sandpaper and slot the ends into homemade handles (a cylindrical bit of wood with a slot cut in it into which the end of the sandpaper slides) is ideal.

- My nighmare job it fretboard radiusing. I now use a radius bit in the router table, but even the finishing with a radius block is difficult. I really recommend attaching handles to the radius block, it makes such a difference. I did see a picture of someone who had used beautiful wooden handles, but I just use blocks of MDF which I double sided tape down. Ugly but really effective.

- Don't try and do everything at once. When I was hand-rediusing fretboards, I would do no more than 10 mins at a time. Take a break, do sometihng different and come back to it. Ditto with neck carve or hand sanding.

- A dremel type tool is great for doing all sorts of things, including intricate neck carving with sanding cylinders, sanding with littel home made flap wheels, polishing frets (terrible for my fingers), etc etc

I hope I'm not teaching you to such eggs, probably you've thought of these already. But I really feel your pain so wanted to brain dump everything I could think of!

 

[honza992]

Just come across a photo of the beautiful handles I use on the radius block!

 

[rudy4444]

Hi dwizum,
If you haven't seen my longish build topic I can recommend you peruse it. Part of the reason I did the entire topic was to pass along the tips and techniques I use to make my woodworking life easier, particularly as it applies to building musical instruments.

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/30”-scale-compact-semi-acoustic-fretless-bass-build.1251494/

I use a 5" random orbit sander (often with a momentary foot switch to pulse it for fine control of the sanding operation). I've found a few helpful tips to minimize swirls. (1) I only use 220 disks. I found using multiple grits simply complicated sanding, increased the chance for swirls, and was no faster than using only 220. (2) Use a good grade of disc, some of the brands are far less uniform in grit so you don't save anything by shopping price only. (3) Aforementioned momentary foot control... this makes the sanding process MUCH more controllable!

Most definitely use a cabinet scraper whenever you can. Here's a handle idea that beats buying the commercially sold version:

 

[dwizum]

Wow, thanks for the thoughtful replies guys. Looks like I have a few things to try:

- get better at the ROS such that I can use it without creating swirls. Typically I use it with 120 for final shaping, then I switch to 220 and/or 320 for finish sanding. I may give up on the 120, I agree that the finer grits cut quick enough (sometimes too quick!)

- use scrapers more, in a nice handle. I don't have a handle which is probably why I don't use scrapers much right now. Time to make one!

- sounds like I need some better files. Right now I use plain old consumer brand files from the hardware store. I'm sure a good quality file would leave a better cut. My arch nemesis is file tooth marks left inside the cutaways and around the neck join. These spots are impossible to get to with power sanding tools and it feels like you have to sand until your fingers fall off. Maybe a quality half round file would leave a fine enough cut that the sanding would be reduced.

@honza992 - which iwasaki files do you use? Just by skimming reviews on Amazon, people seem to think that even the "extra fine" cut removes material quickly. But that's a relative term I suppose. I also noticed someone mention that their half round files don't have teeth on the flat back, which is too bad because I'm used to half round files with teeth on the back so you can swap between a round and a flat shape with the tool in hand.

I have a lot of other questions, bear with me -

A dremel type tool is great for doing all sorts of things

What brand/model do you use, and with which specific attachments? I have an off brand Dremel copy and the typically included attachments (i.e. the little sanding drums). My experience has been that it's so under powered that it's literally not worth using on hardwood.

sticking a small piece of Stikit to you fingers mean you only have to do the sanding, the 'gripping' is done by the adhesive

When sanding, my fingers are already a little raw from the sandpaper itself. Sticking something to them doesn't sound pleasant but I'm willing to give it a try! I'm assuming the adhesive isn't irritating your fingers?

My nighmare job it fretboard radiusing

That one I think I have solved pretty well. I have a radius jig for my router and I radius with a big flat bit that leaves a nearly perfect finish. I just need to touch it up with sandpaper after. I've radiused exactly two fingerboards by sanding alone and let me tell you, it's breathtaking how terrible of an experience that was. I am always surprised at how common it seems to be for people to radius by sanding.

If you haven't seen my longish build topic I can recommend you peruse it

Rudy - I've read specific parts of your thread many times. It's really a treasure trove of ideas. I'm going to go back through the whole thing now with an eye specifically on finger-pain-saving ideas.

And I really like your idea of a foot control for the sander, I'm going to do that for sure.

Your scraper holder - is that hole meant for a screw to clamp it down on the scraper? Or did you find that friction fit is enough? I see both styles commercially.

How are you guys sharpening your scrapers? I've always used a mill file, then rolled the hook on the shaft of a screwdriver. Not the most elegant method.

And again, thanks for the replies, I'm glad to have people diving down this rabbit hole with me!

 

[ardgedee]

I have an off brand Dremel copy and the typically included attachments (i.e. the little sanding drums). My experience has been that it's so under powered that it's literally not worth using on hardwood.

The real item is much better than that. I've used my Dremel (their lowest-grade multispeed model) to enlarge holes in 2mm thick medium steel. Wood of any density should not be an obstacle.

 

[FretsAreFor]

which iwasaki files do you use? Just by skimming reviews on Amazon, people seem to think that even the "extra fine" cut removes material quickly. But that's a relative term I suppose. I also noticed someone mention that their half round files don't have teeth on the flat back, which is too bad

I have the fine cut files and LOVE them. Like, leave-my-wife love. It's a weird tool; it's actually a thousand tiny planes, and this behaves differently than you expect if you're used to files or rasps. I mean, it's obviously similar, but it's also different.

I had to replace my fretboard recently due to a broken truss rod. After gluing and bandsawing, the last part of the process was trimming it to the existing finished neck. I used the Iwasakis for this. I did not have to use any other tools, including sandpaper, in order to get a final finish on the edges of the fretboard. And I did not even slightly damage the finish on the neck. I realize I'm speaking about it as a finishing tool, not a neck-shaping tool, but you get the idea.

Lastly, you're correct; the half-round only has teeth on the convex side. Seems a waste, but the half-round is amazing nonetheless.

Other luthiers use them for neck shaping. Shouldn't be hard to find videos.

 

[mistermikev]

some great suggestions here and I'll take a few tips with me - thanks for that.
when I was young I worked as a sander at a cabinet shop. we used the 'da sander'. with the right pad/grit those things make incredibly short work of sanding, and they do contours with a lot of control. pretty easy on the hands. wish I had a big enough compressor for one.

also, for neck shaping... it's very little work for me. I use a router plane with adjustable steel bars. set the angle for the back of the neck gradient. then take a 45deg chamfer to make the first facet. from there the amound of file work is limited to a much smaller amount.

 

[Arie X]

I've got arthritis so making instruments is exactly what i probably shouldn't do but i do it anyway. I make mostly acoustic guitars -old school. there is a lot of high-risk detail work in your typical flat-top acoustic. random things that can help:

-take breaks with your hands.
-switch from one hand to another. I'm like 90% ambidextrous so it's an advantage.
-take glucosamine with msn. it helps restore the "cushioning" in the joints. for garden variety joint pain in the fingers, I've seen like a 70% decrease in problems within the first month of taking it.
-as stated don't sand down so fine. 220 for bodies and 400 for fingerboards. woods that are to be finished need a bit of tooth for the finish to adhere to anyway.
-use sharp good quality tools. the majority of my stuff is Japanese. super sharp and often not even the same species of tool as their western counterparts. pricey and more work to sharpen, still they make the cutting effort seem insignificant.
-pro tip for instrument work -don't make contours you can't sand easily.
-ROA's are fine. i rough tops and backs down to .100 thick before final sanding and scraping with one. picked that one up from Judy Threet. 40 grit removes a lot of wood quickly.
-spokeshave and a dragon rasp for neck roughing. or a router sled if you have one.
-if you have tools with small painful handles make some adapters that fill the hands more rather than bend the fingers.

 

[honza992]

The dremel I have is the 3000, it is way powerful enough!

The Iwasaki I have the Flat Fine and the Half Round extra fine, both in 150mm. For me that is the perfect combination. I also have the Half Round extra fine 110mm, but I don't find that nearly so useful. You are right though that there is no flat face on the half round, there is just one useable surface.

With regard to scrapers, the advantage of the Veritas holder is that you can set how much bend the card scraper has. I find this useful for difference thickness cards, also for exactly what I am scraping. There are times when I want a pretty flat card cutting surfrace, other times more bent. The veritas has a knob so you can quickly dial in exactly what you want.

You also mention sanding inside the cutaways. Do you have an oscilating sander? I've got a cheapo (£100/$100 one) and it works great for inside cutaways, particularly on Fender style instruments that are flat. Stick a 240 grit sanding sleeve on that, and there's not much more sanding to do.

Wow, thanks for the thoughtful replies guys. Looks like I have a few things to try:

- get better at the ROS such that I can use it without creating swirls. Typically I use it with 120 for final shaping, then I switch to 220 and/or 320 for finish sanding. I may give up on the 120, I agree that the finer grits cut quick enough (sometimes too quick!)

- use scrapers more, in a nice handle. I don't have a handle which is probably why I don't use scrapers much right now. Time to make one!

- sounds like I need some better files. Right now I use plain old consumer brand files from the hardware store. I'm sure a good quality file would leave a better cut. My arch nemesis is file tooth marks left inside the cutaways and around the neck join. These spots are impossible to get to with power sanding tools and it feels like you have to sand until your fingers fall off. Maybe a quality half round file would leave a fine enough cut that the sanding would be reduced.

@honza992 - which iwasaki files do you use? Just by skimming reviews on Amazon, people seem to think that even the "extra fine" cut removes material quickly. But that's a relative term I suppose. I also noticed someone mention that their half round files don't have teeth on the flat back, which is too bad because I'm used to half round files with teeth on the back so you can swap between a round and a flat shape with the tool in hand.

I have a lot of other questions, bear with me -



What brand/model do you use, and with which specific attachments? I have an off brand Dremel copy and the typically included attachments (i.e. the little sanding drums). My experience has been that it's so under powered that it's literally not worth using on hardwood.



When sanding, my fingers are already a little raw from the sandpaper itself. Sticking something to them doesn't sound pleasant but I'm willing to give it a try! I'm assuming the adhesive isn't irritating your fingers?



That one I think I have solved pretty well. I have a radius jig for my router and I radius with a big flat bit that leaves a nearly perfect finish. I just need to touch it up with sandpaper after. I've radiused exactly two fingerboards by sanding alone and let me tell you, it's breathtaking how terrible of an experience that was. I am always surprised at how common it seems to be for people to radius by sanding.



Rudy - I've read specific parts of your thread many times. It's really a treasure trove of ideas. I'm going to go back through the whole thing now with an eye specifically on finger-pain-saving ideas.

And I really like your idea of a foot control for the sander, I'm going to do that for sure.

Your scraper holder - is that hole meant for a screw to clamp it down on the scraper? Or did you find that friction fit is enough? I see both styles commercially.

How are you guys sharpening your scrapers? I've always used a mill file, then rolled the hook on the shaft of a screwdriver. Not the most elegant method.

And again, thanks for the replies, I'm glad to have people diving down this rabbit hole with me!

 

[Beej]

I'll add "let the tool do the work", as it can apply in so many instances. I have to consciously attend to this, but I try not to push down hard when sanding, scraping or filing. I hold it against the surface, but not hard, and let the sandpaper (or tool) do the work. I typically try to clamp the piece or hold it against a bench dog so that my hands are free - one holds the sanding block (or paper, etc) and the other holds a brush to clear the paper after a bunch of strokes. How often to clear it depends on what you're sanding and the grit. If I'm sanding a hardwood, then I brush the paper around every 20 strokes. Epoxy, and I clear it every 6 strokes or so (as it clogs much more quickly). This reduces the effort I have to put into it.

I used to work with a guy in a cabinet shop, who sat in a chair and sanded flat surfaces with a block sander on an angled worktop. It looked kind of like a short podium, with the surface slanted away from him. He said the slope allowed gravity to help his arm on the cut-strokes and cut down his effort. I actually never tried it because I was like 22 years old and invincible, but he swore by it.

I also have a selection of rasps and files that go from extremely rough down to pretty smooth and ending at really smooth. Those little grooves in cutaways can be a pain to sand out, but they can usually be filed out with successively finer files until there's just a little scraping and finally finish sanding to get them smooth.

I'll add that while I'm not as old and decrepit as some of you pathetic old guys ( ), my health at a spry 49 is a tad sketchy with a heart condition, diabetes and psoriasis. The diabetes (despite being well-controlled) has led to some neuropathy in my fingers and toes. Numbness does not go well with the need for tactile sensing in this work! My psoriasis, while not terrible or generalized all over, results in painful psoriatic arthritis near the patches that grow on my hands. The two together make sanding a total joy (note the sarcasm)...

 

[thisSNsucks]

Ever try using these?

https://www.amazon.com/Shop-Fox-D45...argid=aud-801738734305:pla-569740731482&psc=1

I bought a set. Pretty useful for sanding contours. Because it’s an Inflatable drum it’s not ideal to use on sanding edges that need to be dead flat.

there is a company called elevate luthierie that offers them with a hard rubber drum that is dead flat.

it’s a little cumbersome when used in a hand drill but I imagine if it’s hooked up to a straight shaft pneumatic drill or some sort it would be killer.

 

[dwizum]

@thisSNsucks that tool looks pretty cool. Sort of like a drum sander with an extra handle!

What is everyone doing for buffing? I do frets by hand with sandpaper and micro mesh. I have to remind myself to slow down and be gentle otherwise - finger pain.

Also, on bodies, same issue as sanding. It's hard to get in the little nooks around the neck and horns and the curves on the head. Not to mention getting right up into the sharp corners, such as the fretboard to the top of the body. I do have a 8" buffer (one of the big flat ones used for automotive work) but it's pretty much useless on a guitar because it's too big and awkward. I can do a good job by hand, but it's a total killer.

I see sets on amazon of little cotton buffing wheels in different shapes meant for drills, has anyone had luck with those or another tool, both for frets and for curves and nooks on the body?

 

[MPU]

I use Dremel felt polish pads and buffing compound for frets. Fast and easy.

 

[dwizum]

I've got some Iwasaki files on the way, should be here Friday.

I also took @honza992's suggestion about handles on sanding bars and screwed a cutoff from a body blank to the back of my main sanding bar (which is just a piece of flat 4/4 cherry stock). The body blank scrap was very ergonomically shaped as-is so I just eased the corners and screwed it on. Best effort-to-reward ratio of probably any tool modification I've done lately. Way easier on the hands than trying to hold the flat cherry bar by the stupid rough plywood cleats on each end which is how I've been using this block for an embarrassingly long time.

Who but a luthier would have a sanding block made from cherry and curly maple?

 

[honza992]

Looks great!

But I'm a lazy $%&8£%$, and as I reached for my push blocks the other day it occurred to me that the longer one would make the perfect radius caul handle. About 10 seconds later (cut double sided tape, stick straight onto the foam on the bottom of the push block) and stick it to my radius sanding block. Job done. Mine are from the UK, but I assume they're made in China and avalable around the world!

 

[dwizum]

That's a great idea, especially considering those pushblocks are available cheap from places like harbor freight. You could even just mount the sandpaper to the soft rubber pad to have a soft flat block too.

 

[Durham52]

For over 30 years I've gotten great service from a Stanley 'Surform' with a arched blade. (I've found the flat blades pretty useless.) For quite a few years until I built up a range of tools this beast was my main neck and body forearm/tummy cut shaping tool. The thing will cut from strait across and at any angle and I use it like a spokeshave, almost horizontal to the wood and it still cuts. (it does cut like a kitchen micro-plane so a bit of sanding is required to remove the lines it leaves, but a bit of practice with it and that can be minimized.)It's reasonably comfortable to hold and a blade lasts for years, or quite a few necks and bodies, depending on your output.

 

[delta7fred]

(I've found the flat blades pretty useless.)

I'm sure I have a flat one that I've never used somewhere in my workshop (that someone gave me). I will have to get an arched blade for it.