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Tough time getting paid

#21
This is an all too common situation, unfortunately.

IF (big if) I was the business owner, I really don't think that I could stay in business based on the margins of one night's worth of business and have to haggle for a few dozen dollars from a band's take at the end of the night. This may not be realistic in this business, but I'd take the longer strategic view: over the course of a year, I might have nights with great draws and nights with not so great draws. I would certainly never rely fully on a band to do the marketing required to fill my bar night after night. Big risk there and is the mark of a lazy owner/manager.

In the long run, live music will have a more or less fixed cost over a year (fitting into what we'd call an "entertainment budget"). Average out all the nights revenues where I've got bands, subtract all the costs when I have bands. If there's a profit at the end of the year, I'm not going to sweat it for a hundred dollars either way. If there's a loss at the end of the year, well, that tells me I shouldn't be hosting live music.

The reality is that a lot of these places are run on tight margins with lacklustre management and are often only a few bad days away from shutting their doors. This guy sounds like he's drinking his profits.

On topic: the few times it looked like we were going to be shorted at the end of the night, we stood our ground and got what we agreed to and never bothered with that place again. Interestingly, these were a couple of places that have since gone out of business.
 
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#22
DirtDog said:
This is an all too common situation, unfortunately.

IF (big if) I was the business owner, I really don't think that I could stay in business based on the margins of one night's worth of business and have to haggle for a few dozen dollars from a band's take at the end of the night. This may not be realistic in this business, but I'd take the longer strategic view: over the course of a year, I might have nights with great draws and nights with not so great draws. I would certainly never rely fully on a band to do the marketing required to fill my bar night after night. Big risk there and is the mark of a lazy owner/manager.

In the long run, live music will have a more or less fixed cost over a year (fitting into what we'd call an "entertainment budget"). Average out all the nights revenues where I've got bands, subtract all the costs when I have bands. If there's a profit at the end of the year, I'm not going to sweat it for a hundred dollars either way. If there's a loss at the end of the year, well, that tells me I shouldn't be hosting live music.

The reality is that a lot of these places are run on tight margins with lacklustre management and are often only a few bad days away from shutting their doors. This guy sounds like he's drinking his profits.

On topic: the few times it looked like we were going to be shorted at the end of the night, we stood our ground and got what we agreed to and never bothered with that place again. Interestingly, these were a couple of places that have since gone out of business.
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Spot on ^^ If a venue counts on bands only to make for a profitable night then they will soon be closing. There has to be a budget by the owner and they need to know if their place support live music. If they decide to try it then pay the bands flat rate, if it's not working try a door charge , tips only or quit having music. The worse they can do is make promises to band they cant financially keep.
 
#24
bassbully said:
I have heard of this happening before. Any bar owner or manager who books bands at a flat rate is expected to pay that rate if the band performs and does its job. This is why some bands use contracts but bars will often get around it by charging the door or having bands play for tips only.
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We got schooled in the get the door method really quickly. The only thing this club paid bands was the door, but it was a big place and had a rep for good live music so on any given weekend the money would be good even for bands nobody ever heard of and great for bands with some local rep.

Our first job there the bar manger told us we should supply our own door person but he could put someone on it if we couldn't come up with one of our own. The first night we had a friend do the door and we made bank, much better than we expected. They liked us and booked for another saturday the following month. The second time we didn't have a door worked so the bar supplied one. Word got around about us and our second night was packed tight, they were swinging from the rafters the place was so full, and it was that way all night long. Imagine our surprise when at the end of the night the bar manager handed us less than a third of what we'd made the first time. We braced him about it and he just shrugged and said he gave us the option of watching our money and that was pretty much the end of the conversation. Much as it infuriated us, he had a point so we wrote it off as a stupid tax lesson and moved on. We also made sure to get the word out to everyone we knew that if they were going in there to play, don't do it without their own door worker.

We wound up playing there quite a bit over then next couple of years but we always supplied our own door worker and we always did really well.
 
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#25
It's a tough business.
You did the gig.
He should expect off nights and should know
that certain nights will be slow and not have entertainment.
i.e. Most bar bands here in New England know better than
to take a gig when the Patriots are playing on Thursday night.
 
#26
bassbully said:
The worse they can do is make promises to band they cant financially keep.
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Reminds me of one night that could be alternately called my best gig and worst gig at the same time when I was in my early early 20s. Scenario - Sat night gig at a hole in the wall downtown live music joint. This was an annex to a larger more popular space down the street. This place catered to more "edgy"/"not purist" blues bands back in the day. Alt-blues? Anyways, the guy that ran the place was a ne'er do well but a killer singer in a few bands around town. Terrible club manager. We hump our gear up three flights and start setting up. it was hot as sin outside and the AC was off. Manager comes up to us (we knew him well as we rented rehearsal space from him) and says: "Boys, the place is shutting down after tonight's show and I'm pretty sure there won't be enough cash to pay you". We all look at him dumbfounded. "But", he says "It's open bar for y'all and you can order anything you want off the menu". First thing that came to mind was "SURF and TURF". We ordered up gobfulls of food and pitchers and whiskey and got to business.

Over the course of the night, we were so trashed that the gig totally went epically off the rails. The drummer was in such bad shape that the soundguy had to take over on the kit. We had a full range of jammers come up on stage with us (incl. the manager/singer dude). There were a couple of strippers that "showed up" (for the free drinks, I'm guessing) and put on a hell of a show on the tables right in front of the stage (thank you Angel and Angela - you will never be forgotten). So what had the potential to be a soul sucking night was one that went down in infamy for that band. So much so that people still talk about it today.

Never saw a dime from that gig.
 
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#27
unless the bar owner is brand new to the business, he knew that thanksgiving is one of the nights each year where he'll see few patrons. assuming he's not new to the business, he either thought you'd bring all your friends - foolish since your friends were probably all at home with their families - or he expected to stiff you after letting you play.

years ago i went to the rainbow in hollywood on thanksgiving with a friend, and we were the ONLY patrons there at 10 pm. and they don't even have live music. the owner bought us a drink to keep us from leaving, but after a while we opted to go somewhere where people were having fun rather than letting the owner keep buying our drinks. if i had been he, i'd have sent the staff home to enjoy their holiday since the club wasn't making any money anyway.
 
#28
One of the clubs we play regularly asked us if we could take a $100 cut one night a few months ago because it was dead. We said sure, no problem. This past Saturday the place was packed right up to closing time. They gave us $100 more than we had agreed on.

It never hurts to be a nice guy, but you were within your rights to get paid the agreed upon amount - regardless of turnout.
 
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#31
DirtDog said:
IF (big if) I was the business owner, I really don't think that I could stay in business based on the margins of one night's worth of business and have to haggle for a few dozen dollars from a band's take at the end of the night. This may not be realistic in this business, but I'd take the longer strategic view: over the course of a year, I might have nights with great draws and nights with not so great draws. I would certainly never rely fully on a band to do the marketing required to fill my bar night after night. Big risk there and is the mark of a lazy owner/manager.

The reality is that a lot of these places are run on tight margins with lacklustre management and are often only a few bad days away from shutting their doors. This guy sounds like he's drinking his profits.
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Yup, if under $100 will make or break your business, you have bigger problems on your hands.
Historically, musicians have a reputation as terrible businessmen. Why on earth would you rely on poor businessmen to market and fill your bar? That's a fool's bet if I ever saw one. If I could fill your bar consistently and keep the registers ringing all night, I'd be worth a whole lot more than the $100 cut that I make at a bar gig. What is worse is that too often, bars on their last legs will hire bands to create draw that they can't generate on their own. But by that point, it's like bringing a bucket to house that's burning down.

IMO, IME, no gimmick can help a business that can't do it's core function effectively.
 
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#33
If I bought NFL Sunday ticket and a bunch of TVs, but my bar didn't get a commensurate return on the investment, I don't get to have the NFL or Best Buy to give me a discount because of it. I don't get to have the landlord, electric company, or the city give me a break on bills because business is bad. I don't get to short the plumber, beer distributor, or cleaning lady because it was a slow week. Unless the band made a specific guarantee on draw, it's no different than any other profession. You do the work, you get paid. Getting results from the work is up to the customer.

There's a risk in all businesses, and that's why you have profit.
 
#37
AcridSaint said:
Can we talk about the elephant in the room here? Canadians have Thanksgiving in October?!?
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Only until the inevitable happens, and they become our 51st state. :thumbsup:

Actually, we have some family in Canada, and we invite them for Thanksgiving, but they have their Grey Cup party. It's a conspiracy I tell you.
 
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#38
buldog5151bass said:
Only until the inevitable happens, and they become our 51st state. :thumbsup:

Actually, we have some family in Canada, and we invite them for Thanksgiving, but they have their Grey Cup party. It's a conspiracy I tell you.
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My father has been in Canada for half of my life and I didn't know about this. I'm not even sure this is reality.
 

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