lemme see......a bunch of old-timers who don't like canned tracks (but who no longer gig themselves) sign in to their favorite social media site to eschew hypocrisy! 
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Touring artists without a bass player
- Thread starter CWAnderson
- Start date
Once again, let's keep in mind the distinction between music and "processed music food product".
There are people who use various electronic enhancements in creating actual music. (I think that the concert I saw where Jaco used a looper delay to build multiple levels of improvisation, would be considered actual music.) That's fine, though usually it's not very interesting to me. And of course we have to talk about drawing a line - if a microphone with a bit of reverb is OK, where between that and the full Milli Vanilli lip sync act is the line? I'm certainly not prepared to argue that one out!
Then there are people who are engaged in the "processed music food product" industry who use synthesized backing tracks as a money saving device. The product is generally so processed, manipulated, and rigorously replicated ("it's got to be exactly like the record or our target audience won't like it") that the presence of any actual humans on stage is largely superfluous anyway. Where we get hung up is when we confuse this money-saving device used in creating a bland soundscape pabulum with the artistic device used for artistic ends. Especially since it's often the same basic hardware, it's easy to confuse one with the other.
I am reaching a point where I think the "processed music food industry" really has nothing at all to do with the longstanding human endeavour called "making music". There are other cases like this. What I do when I go to my backyard garden is a longstanding human endeavour called "gardening". What is done to get the cardboard-tasting tomatoes to the local supermarket, specially hybridized to turn red and ship well, all other characteristics subordinated to these, is NOT what I would call "gardening". I'd call it "mass production of food-like substances".
Since I do not depend on music and music-like activities to earn my living, I have no trouble stepping away from the "music-like products industry" (as if I were ever really involved in it, which I wasn't) and focusing on the essentials of the human activity called "making music". That also means that making music is kind of guaranteed to be a money-losing activity for me, and it also means that a lot of times I'll be making music with players who aren't very good. On the other hand, it also puts me back in line with how humans made music from 100,000 BC or whenever they started doing this, up to about 1940. At my age, I'm deciding to throw in with the 101,940 years of experience versus the most recent 80. I feel sorry for musicians who are still working from the assumptions of the period roughly 1920-1960 when it was possible for actual musicians, creating actual live music in person, to make a (modest) living from it. I believe that this longstanding human endeavour, that for a brief spot in history was commercially viable, is becoming less and less so, and soon will once again be the purview of people at home on their back porches.
So, don't get all upset when you see a "touring artist" - which simply means one of the spokespersons for the "music-like processed products industry" - emitting their semi-pleasing sounds without the use of living musicians. That's like getting upset because IKEA use giant hydraulic presses to form their particleboard into furniture-like products rather than employing teams of craftsmen with hand planes and glue pots. One's a giant mass production manufacturer, the other's a workshop. Same with these "touring artists"; they're just the visible face of a giant mass production manufacturer of "entertainment product" meant to be sold and to help sell other products like "beer-like product" and advertising revenues.
There are people who use various electronic enhancements in creating actual music. (I think that the concert I saw where Jaco used a looper delay to build multiple levels of improvisation, would be considered actual music.) That's fine, though usually it's not very interesting to me. And of course we have to talk about drawing a line - if a microphone with a bit of reverb is OK, where between that and the full Milli Vanilli lip sync act is the line? I'm certainly not prepared to argue that one out!
Then there are people who are engaged in the "processed music food product" industry who use synthesized backing tracks as a money saving device. The product is generally so processed, manipulated, and rigorously replicated ("it's got to be exactly like the record or our target audience won't like it") that the presence of any actual humans on stage is largely superfluous anyway. Where we get hung up is when we confuse this money-saving device used in creating a bland soundscape pabulum with the artistic device used for artistic ends. Especially since it's often the same basic hardware, it's easy to confuse one with the other.
I am reaching a point where I think the "processed music food industry" really has nothing at all to do with the longstanding human endeavour called "making music". There are other cases like this. What I do when I go to my backyard garden is a longstanding human endeavour called "gardening". What is done to get the cardboard-tasting tomatoes to the local supermarket, specially hybridized to turn red and ship well, all other characteristics subordinated to these, is NOT what I would call "gardening". I'd call it "mass production of food-like substances".
Since I do not depend on music and music-like activities to earn my living, I have no trouble stepping away from the "music-like products industry" (as if I were ever really involved in it, which I wasn't) and focusing on the essentials of the human activity called "making music". That also means that making music is kind of guaranteed to be a money-losing activity for me, and it also means that a lot of times I'll be making music with players who aren't very good. On the other hand, it also puts me back in line with how humans made music from 100,000 BC or whenever they started doing this, up to about 1940. At my age, I'm deciding to throw in with the 101,940 years of experience versus the most recent 80. I feel sorry for musicians who are still working from the assumptions of the period roughly 1920-1960 when it was possible for actual musicians, creating actual live music in person, to make a (modest) living from it. I believe that this longstanding human endeavour, that for a brief spot in history was commercially viable, is becoming less and less so, and soon will once again be the purview of people at home on their back porches.
So, don't get all upset when you see a "touring artist" - which simply means one of the spokespersons for the "music-like processed products industry" - emitting their semi-pleasing sounds without the use of living musicians. That's like getting upset because IKEA use giant hydraulic presses to form their particleboard into furniture-like products rather than employing teams of craftsmen with hand planes and glue pots. One's a giant mass production manufacturer, the other's a workshop. Same with these "touring artists"; they're just the visible face of a giant mass production manufacturer of "entertainment product" meant to be sold and to help sell other products like "beer-like product" and advertising revenues.
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lemme see......a bunch of old-timers who don't like canned tracks (but who no longer gig themselves) sign in to their favorite social media site to eschew hypocrisy!
Where's the hypocrisy? People who don't like canned tracks, not participating in what they have contempt for? Sounds like principle, not hypocrisy.
And the "old farts don't know what they're talking about" theme is getting a wee bit shop-worn. The old farts might just know EXACTLY what they're talking about.
This all sounds like taking musicians out of music. If that’s the future then I’m going to go retro and play music live with others who feel the same way even if it’s in my garage for fun and no money.
im not anti technology in music as I am and have always been a big synth pop fan from the early 80s-90s. All programmed beats and bass lines with a singer and some live keys. Awesome! But then I’ve been in punk/rock/surf bands with real organic music being played live. I’ll never give that up because it’s too much fun! Making money at music seems to be going down more and more and having to compromise the music just to make a buck sucks. It’s not respected anymore.
im not anti technology in music as I am and have always been a big synth pop fan from the early 80s-90s. All programmed beats and bass lines with a singer and some live keys. Awesome! But then I’ve been in punk/rock/surf bands with real organic music being played live. I’ll never give that up because it’s too much fun! Making money at music seems to be going down more and more and having to compromise the music just to make a buck sucks. It’s not respected anymore.
It's all about the greenbacks. Major artists have cut back
on the size of the band. I saw Al Di'Meola's acoustic show.
He had a percussionist & an Accordian player. Yes, an accordian player.
They sounded great but half the audience booed them at one point.
Local agent books only solo or duo acts, they use backing tracks, because the venues are not hiring
bands after Covid.
on the size of the band. I saw Al Di'Meola's acoustic show.
He had a percussionist & an Accordian player. Yes, an accordian player.
They sounded great but half the audience booed them at one point.
Local agent books only solo or duo acts, they use backing tracks, because the venues are not hiring
bands after Covid.
Why'd people boo DiMeola?
I know that the time I saw him at Newport, he spent a ton of time complaining about his slot (last of the day) and griping at the people who were leaving to try to beat the traffic home. It was kind of obtrusive to his performance.
I would think a percussionist and accordion player with DiMeola could work really well for what he does; it might not have been purely a financial decision. Or it might have been.
Just popped in to agree with this sentiment.
This situation may or may not be temporary. But things have been moving in this direction for a long time. 80s pop was often quite synth heavy. Rap and hip hop have mostly just utilized keyboard bass. Melodic parts in that genre are sampled from whatever.
There will always still be some guitar in popular music and in certain songs. But it’s not dominant the way it was.
Saw Steve Winwood open for Steely Dan a few years ago and he had no bass player. He played left hand and pedal bass on the organ. I also remember Shania Twain’s bass player saying he wasn’t needed for a tour because they wanted to focus more on the dancers and the bass was on a track. I guarantee no one even noticed the lack of a bass player on stage.
Derek’s a great player he’s the one I was talking about above in reference to Shania.
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There'll always be 'real' rock bands out there, just like there are classical ensembles, it's part of music history; it just won't be mainstream or what teenagers are predominantly into. Never mind basses, we're in a world where grown ups get misty-eyed about their first Akai sampler.
Yeah, he was great. The whole show was way better than expected. I was a No Doubt fan back in the day, but not a fan of her solo stuff. They did a good mix of No Doubt tunes and the more rock solo stuff. This was the first time I saw her live and she has a very relatable stage persona, IMO. Derek and Liso Lee (guitarist) were a lot of fun to watch and listen to.
A lot depends on the genre and the band.
In performances where the vocals are the main draw there’s plenty of room for a singer to stretch out or improvise despite working off a static arrangement that involves prerecorded tracks. I think most singers (or at least the ones I’ve known) generally prefer to know exactly what they’re going to be working off of when they decide to take flight so to speak.
And if you’re working with a live orchestra and/or choral ensemble, it’s doubtful there’s much more flexibility. Because the bigger the ensemble, the more likely they’re playing straight off written arrangements anyway. And one sure way to get yourself fired from an orchestra or chorale is to go off chart and do some improvising. So I don’t think that’s a 100% valid argument.
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I remember seeing Jimmie Vaughan (in the Lucinda Williams era...early 2000's) with the Hammond player doing the bass. I was aghast at the time, but honest, it sounded pretty good! Then I realized what it took for the Hammond player to do double duty. That got me into organ trios.
