Transcribing half-step modulations and key signature choice

[Trilobita]

In order to improve my notation skills and my understanding of music theory in general I have been making transcriptions for my personal use. Right now I am transcribing this song (such a cool bass line):



The song starts in straight up G major, with a section where the bass emphasizes F natural followed by a couple of C#s and a wacky sequence of fifths that descend chromatically (all this in 0:55-1:19). Then it starts all over again, but this second time around (after the same C#s as before, at exactly 2:36) the bass moves yet another step up to play D# and then the song goes back to the initial section, which is played a half-step up in G# major (that is: with six sharps and a double sharp).

Now, I know G# major is enharmonic with Ab major, but would notating this modulation with four flats (coming from G major with its single F sharp) properly convey the idea that the song actually modulates a half step up to G sharp?

Also, if anyone could explain to me what is happening when the bass emphasizes F natural at 0:55, that would be great. Since the saxophone keeps hitting G, I can only imagine the song is still in G major while the bass plays a minor seventh (instead of the diatonic F# major seventh in the key of G major), but I am not entirely sure. A confirmation or a clarification (as the case may be) would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Les Fret]

Ask Victor!

 

[Pacman]

Ab would be correct in this case.

Also, if you think of that D# as Eb, it's the V of the new key (Ab)

 

[Trilobita]

Ask Victor!

You mean the 30 keys stuff?

Also, if you think of that D# as Eb, it's the V of the new key (Ab)

Excellent -- this makes lots of sense. If I also go back and treat what I was previously treating as a loose C# as a loose Db instead, it becomes the IV of the soon-to-be new key and the modulation would possibly be better explained because the main song structure would become:

G major - momentary hint at Ab major (IV) - back to G major - bridge to Ab major (IV-V) - Ab major (I)

Any opinions on the heavily emphasized F natural while the saxophone plays the lead at 0:55 (and then again on a longer repeat/variation starting at 2:00)? Is that really the bass playing a low minor seventh while the song is still in G major?

Thank you!

 

[Febs]

Any opinions on the heavily emphasized F natural while the saxophone plays the lead at 0:55 (and then again on a longer repeat/variation starting at 2:00)? Is that really the bass playing a low minor seventh while the song is still in G major?

I hear that section as something like Fmaj9 | Em11 Am7.

 

[Trilobita]

I hear that section as something like Fmaj9 | Em11 Am7.

This is precisely the point where my understanding breaks down because I still don't know how to analyze chords in context. Given that the first chord in the section is Fmaj9 (the bass plays the root F, the sax plays the 9th G -- so far so good), where does that leave us in the larger context of G major? Is this section based on a borrowed VII degree while the song as a whole is still in G major? Or has the song as a whole modulated to F major at this section and the bass is playing the root of the F major scale (and not just the root of a borrowed VII chord while still in G major)? But the B is natural and not flat, which means in this case it would be an augmented fourth, so it couldn't be F major... could this be in F Lydian?

 

[Les Fret]

You mean the 30 keys stuff?

Exactly, the whole 30 keys debate!

 

[Bob_Ross]

Given that the first chord in the section is Fmaj9 (the bass plays the root F, the sax plays the 9th G -- so far so good), where does that leave us in the larger context of G major?

bVIImaj7 is a fairly common chord in a major key that functions as a subdominant. It -- arguably -- is derived simply by lowering the root (only) of the diatonic VIIminor7b5 chord one half-step.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Now, I know G# major is enharmonic with Ab major, but would notating this modulation with four flats (coming from G major with its single F sharp) properly convey the idea that the song actually modulates a half step up to G sharp?

Not sure why this is a concern; from G up to Ab is a half-step up by definition. Going to Ab major instead of G# major wouldn't just convey the modulation properly--it would, for most of us, do it much better. In a lifetime of playing, I haven't seen G# major, ever. Never say "never," and all that; you might be able to dredge up an example or two of G# major if you scour the interwebs. Still, Ab major is vastly more common and vastly easier to read, especially for bassists.

 

[Trilobita]

Not sure why this is a concern; from G up to Ab is a half-step up by definition. Going to Ab major instead of G# major wouldn't just convey the modulation properly--it would, for most of us, do it much better. In a lifetime of playing, I haven't seen G# major, ever. Never say "never," and all that; you might be able to dredge up an example or two of G# major if you scour the interwebs. Still, Ab major is vastly more common and vastly easier to read, especially for bassists.

It's not a concern in the strict sense -- I am really just trying to make sense of music theory in a musical way, but since I am mostly self-taught I often run into difficulties when it comes down to chords or to the musical structure as a whole (i.e., not only the bass part, but all instruments considered together) in actual, real contexts which are often not as simple and unambiguous as most clear-cut examples I happen to come across when I watch instructional videos, for example. I guess with this G to "G#" (though actually Ab) modulation I was thinking of the notation practice of using sharps when going up an off-scale semitone and flats when going down an off-scale semitone, but as this thread shows that isn't a very good idea for one-semitone-up key changes after all.

 

[smtp4me]

In order to improve my notation skills and my understanding of music theory in general I have been making transcriptions for my personal use. Right now I am transcribing this song (such a cool bass line):



The song starts in straight up G major, with a section where the bass emphasizes F natural followed by a couple of C#s and a wacky sequence of fifths that descend chromatically (all this in 0:55-1:19). Then it starts all over again, but this second time around (after the same C#s as before, at exactly 2:36) the bass moves yet another step up to play D# and then the song goes back to the initial section, which is played a half-step up in G# major (that is: with six sharps and a double sharp).

Now, I know G# major is enharmonic with Ab major, but would notating this modulation with four flats (coming from G major with its single F sharp) properly convey the idea that the song actually modulates a half step up to G sharp?

Also, if anyone could explain to me what is happening when the bass emphasizes F natural at 0:55, that would be great. Since the saxophone keeps hitting G, I can only imagine the song is still in G major while the bass plays a minor seventh (instead of the diatonic F# major seventh in the key of G major), but I am not entirely sure. A confirmation or a clarification (as the case may be) would be much appreciated.

Thanks!

I would assume the D# is played as the beginning of the modulation to G# - D# would be the 5th of G# and would naturally resolve down (5 to 1). What is the next chord after the bass plays F and the rest play G? Depending on what the next chord is, the F could just be a passing tone that fits Gm7 and also fits the next chord.

 

[Snarf]

Now, I know G# major is enharmonic with Ab major, but would notating this modulation with four flats (coming from G major with its single F sharp) properly convey the idea that the song actually modulates a half step up to G sharp?

Yes.

Edit: Uh, no you wouldn't want to use four flats to convey G#. You would want to use four flats to convey Ab.

Nobody wants to read in G#. Make it Ab.

 

[Papageno]

Modulations are not all equivalent.

If you modulate to a neighbor key (one 5th higher or lower) then there is a natural choice for the new, which is to have one additional sharp or flat. For example, if you are in Eb major and modulate to the dominant, you will be in Bb major (not A# major).

The situation is very different when you want to modulate to a very distant key, like a half-step higher. In this case there is no really natural choice for the spelling of the key (because it is not motivated by proximity). In such situation, the best choice is usually to chose the key which easiest to read or spell (with the simplest key signature). So if you are in G major and modulate up a half-step, you will be in Ab major (not G# major). But if you are in Eb major and modulate up a half-step, you will be in E major (not Fb major).

For example in So What, Miles Davis modulates from D dorian to Eb dorian (not D# dorian) to convey the feeling of going up a half-step.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It -- arguably -- is derived simply by lowering the root (only) of the diatonic VIIminor7b5 chord one half-step.

(It's only my amateur opinion.)
I would describe/notate that chord (when the bass plays F) as Amin7/F.
There is clearly pronounced G in the upper chord structure.
Amin7 (ii-) belongs to the subdominant chord group (with subdominant functions) of G major .
Next chord - Emin9/11 (or as Bmin7/E) - is vi, followed again by Amin7 (ii-).
Should we just look at the right hand chords - without the bass notes - the chord progression would be Amin7 - Emin9/11 (Bmin7) - Amin7 (or C6).

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Or has the song as a whole modulated to F major at this section and the bass is playing the root of the F major scale (and not just the root of a borrowed VII chord while still in G major)?

No. The song has not modulated to F major.
Maybe, one could look at that section as some temporary Tonicization(?) to C major/Amin: Fmaj9 - Emin9/11 - Amin7.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

When that "section-in-question (Fmaj9)" repeats itself later in the song - around 2:23 - we have some other chord movement in lieu of Fmaj9.
The keys/piano plays the following chords (as quarter notes):
C(6) as G - (A) - C - E and
Gadd2 as G - (A) - B - D.

We have C6/F and Gadd2/F instead of Fmaj9, before moving to Emin9/11 - Amin7, etc..., and at the end of that section we have the "required for modulation" cadence of Abmin7/Db and Bbmin7/Eb to lend on Ab (new) Tonic.

https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...3/?temp_hash=916027fd3aee5fa3c9feee0ec9b0aca8


Here is an interesting thing.
Elton John's song, "Bennie and the Jets" has a similar chord progression:
Gmaj7 / Fmaj7 in Intro.
And it has just one sharp key - F#, but we have that "strongly pronounced" Fmaj7.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Here is another song - Spandau Ballet's "True".
We have the same chord Fmaj9 (bVIImaj9) in the Key of G major.
That borrowed chord comes from G Mixolydian.

 

[Trilobita]

I was quite busy for a while and ended up not getting back TB in the meantime -- but these were very interesting answers which definitely made me understand what I was trying to understand. Sincere thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I've just listened to a very nice Lisa Stansfield's song, "All Over the World."
It's from my "active" years. The song has a simple but interesting bass rhythmic pattern - it gives some "cool" buoyancy feeling.
(They don't write that kind of songs anymore.)

I've found on the Internet chords for the song - it's pretty accurate.

The song includes a "half-step" modulation from Intro to Verse 1, and some "other" chords.
Intro starts with Dbmaj7.
(Check the key.)

Here are the chords for the song:

Any ideas what's happening with the chords in Intro and, then, in Verse/Chorus?
What about that C#min7 chord in the song?

 

[SteveCS]

I've just listened to a very nice Lisa Stansfield's song, "All Over the World."
It's from my "active" years. The song has a simple but interesting bass rhythmic pattern - it gives some "cool" buoyancy feeling.
(They don't write that kind of songs anymore.)

I've found on the Internet chords for the song - it's pretty accurate.

The song includes a "half-step" modulation from Intro to Verse 1, and some "other" chords.
Intro starts with Dbmaj7.
(Check the key.)

View attachment 4577344

Here are the chords for the song:
View attachment 4577348 View attachment 4577349 View attachment 4577350

Any ideas what's happening with the chords in Intro and, then, in Verse/Chorus?
What about that C#min7 chord in the song?

I just looked at what looks like the same lead sheet in Ultimate Guitar and it appears to have been 'corrected':
Lisa Stansfield - All Around The World (Chords)

But based on the score you posted, 4 flats is Ab, not Db. The chord might be only a half-step away but the key change is a major 3rd down.