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Tremelo and spiccato at the same time

Discussion in 'Orchestral Technique [DB]' started by damonsmith, Dec 12, 2013.

  1. damonsmith


    May 10, 2006
    Quincy, MA
    After about 21 min. Mike Majkowski does it here, but lightly, he can do with more power, too.
    I am working on it with both French and German grips:

    It is not easy to control.
  2. Lee Moses

    Lee Moses

    Apr 2, 2013
    Kudos to the audience for their patience.
  3. Dbass926


    Jun 20, 2005
    Philadelphia, PA
    It's much easier to execute this technique at the balance point of the bow. During long tremolos, such as the first movement of tchaik 6, I use it to relieve the strain on my muscles, and can sometimes get into it during other very loud tremolos for variety of sound.
    Given that I only tuned in for the time point you indicated, it sounds like a very challenging show to have listened to, but this can be used as a valid orchestra technique.
  4. damonsmith


    May 10, 2006
    Quincy, MA
    The divisions here Jazz and Orchestral technique are pretty dated and limited. I think Classical would be better since it covers solo and techniques like this based in classical study.
    Anyhow, the performance was in Berlin - not Ar-Kansas. They sit through things a lot more boring than this!

    As for the technique I have been working on it at the tip, not the balance. I will try both. I am working on it starting from spiccato and adding the tremelo and vice-versa.
  5. This is NOT spiccato. Spiccato, as Brent points out, is a true off-the-string stroke near the balance point. It is highly controlled, with the impulse originating from the upper back and chest with further direction coming from behind the elbow.

    The mechanics of this stroke, which I guess I would call a rapid sautillé, are entirely different. It would best be accomplished further out in the bow (perhaps where the curve of the stick begins to come up toward the tip), with a very loose, very fast wrist jiggle.

    There's a nice example of Renaud Garcia-Fons using it in this video between 2:20 and 2:40. Rabbath also uses it at the beginning of Sete-Quate from his "Live Around the World" album.
  6. Lee Moses

    Lee Moses

    Apr 2, 2013
    That's an astute observation. No, that performance would probably not be as well received in Arkansas. Or in other places I have lived in my adult life, including Chicago, Boston, Houston, DFW, or Memphis.

    The technique is nice. But it would be more enjoyable to the ears in some kind of melodic and harmonic context.
  7. damonsmith


    May 10, 2006
    Quincy, MA
    Thanks for clearing things up, Mr Cannon. I may need to get some lessons from you.

    Mr. Moses: Interestingly, there are decent crowds for abstract music music in DFW (if you count Denton), Houston, where I regularly play, Boston has a good scene and Chicago has had an avant garde music scene of all variations for 60 years or so.
    I have not been to Memphis, but I'd love to go some day.
    I think you can get a bigger audience doing this sort of thing than playing Bottesinni.

    In my mind the melodies can just get in the way - as soon as Paul posted R G-F, I thought, "Duh, I have heard him do it a lot". Where Majkowski is presenting the sound "un-molested".

    Majkowski does it more clearly on his solo album, Tremelo.
  8. chicagodoubler


    Aug 7, 2007
    Chicago, that toddling town
    Endorsing Artist: Lakland, Genz Benz
    Damon, for once I agree.

    Vandermark's performances sell out, with chairs in the aisles. Same for Jeb Bishop, etc...

    There's a huge market for experiential music, but a scene has to be fostered in each market.

    Berliners are very open to this sort of thing. Their aesthetic leans toward experimental in all media. Perhaps this is backlash to the very conservative and very famous Orchestra there...

    And yes, this is a Sautille, very much in the style of Rabbath and his disciples.
  9. damonsmith


    May 10, 2006
    Quincy, MA
    Yeah, I am astounded at the audiences for abstract music. I just had a sold out show I put together with Henry Kaiser in Houston, along with two more packed houses here and strong audience in Austin.

    Clearly, I need to spend some more time with Rabbath and the Art of The Bow DVD. I learned his French grip and use it, as well the left hand pivots. But it was years ago that took lessons with a Rabbath teacher.
    Maybe some lessons with the Pauls in town here - Cannon and Ellison are in order.
  10. damonsmith


    May 10, 2006
    Quincy, MA
    Art of the bow should arrive any day now.
  11. I have seen people do spiccato instead of tremolo because it is easier to control the volume and doesn't wear you down.
  12. hsu912174


    Apr 24, 2009
    This looks a lot like the roll on snares.
    Maybe if you keep the bow at the right angle and apply the right amount of pressure you might be able to get this going indefinitely?
  13. damonsmith


    May 10, 2006
    Quincy, MA
    The real answer is just flat hair instead of angling the bow towards the fingerboard. It can be nice for a cutting, clear thin tone but not for anything that requires bounce. Thanks to Rabbath for that!!