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Triads or 7ths first?

G

germ_77

Jul 16, 2011
213
1
#1
Hey just wanted some input, I have been checking out scotts lesson on practicing arpeggios and was wondering before I spend a ton of time working on that should I do the same thing using just the major, minor and dim triads?

I am not into jazz at all but mainly play, punk, metal, country, rock, etc.

Just wondering what the best approach would be.
 
#2
MalcolmAmos said:
IMO - we should have a generic bass line in muscle memory for Major chords, minor chords and diminished chords. See a chord and have a generic bass line that your fingers can automatically go to.



What should you work on? I'd recommend you get those generic major, minor and diminished bass lines into muscle memory - see a minor chord and your fingers know what to do - THEN - You can not go too far wrong working on what are in Scott's lessons. Take a lesson and do what he says.

My point --- In lesson 1 on arpeggios Scott tells you how to play an arpeggio in three locations on the neck. OK great, nice to know, but, are you going to play an arpeggio in three locations in a song. Not likely. So ---- you need to stay focused on how you will use what you learn -- when playing songs.

Using fake chord, or jamming with a CD how can you use what Scott told you. That lesson was on how to PRACTICE arpeggios, not on how to use arpeggios.
Click to expand...


Thanks for that info above, What I was meaning was would it be better to practice triads in a similar fashion before the full arpeggios like he is teaching. I wasnt sure if he was assuming you already had a really strong grasp of playing just the triads all over the neck.

I have been practicing triads quite a bit which has been helping me memorize the notes in places I dont play as much but I have been stuck just practicing them with basically just two positions, for major root on middle finger, 3rd with 1st finger and 5th with pinky. And then the other one root with pinky, 3rd with 3rd finger, 5th with first finger. (and then the similar patterns for minor).

So far that has been really helping me memorize all of the notes as I have been trying to think of them as the note name while I play them.

I know the lesson is not on how to use them for actual songs, I wasnt expecting to use them like that, just to help know what options are available to play over the chord.

I just didnt want to jump into playing the arpeggios of the full chords if I should have a better grasp of all the notes in each triad first.

"What should you work on? I'd recommend you get those generic major, minor and diminished bass lines into muscle memory - see a minor chord and your fingers know what to do - THEN - You can not go too far wrong working on what are in Scott's lessons. Take a lesson and do what he says. "

^This part here I wasnt sure exactly what you meant, I am assuming by generic major, minor and diminished basslines you mean working on it like in your quote so starting with just root, fifth and octave, then add in the 3rd and slowly work up to the rest? Correct?

Sorry if I sound like a dumb ass
 
#3
I think it would be beneficial for you to learn now that full chord voicings are 1, 3, 5, and 7, not jut a triad. When you are creating bass lines, you'll use this information even if the guitarist plays a simple triad-based chord. For example, a guitarist could play the chords G C D and it would sound fine, but the D chord is really functioning as a D7, so you can add the note C over the D as you go back to G. This is a very simple example; there are many other reasons why 7ths will vastly color your playing. In many styles, the two most important notes of a chord are the 3rd and the 7th.

But don't exclude the root, of course. That's obviously very critical for bass.
 
#4
FretlessMainly said:
I think it would be beneficial for you to learn now that full chord voicings are 1, 3, 5, and 7, not jut a triad. When you are creating bass lines, you'll use this information even if the guitarist plays a simple triad-based chord. For example, a guitarist could play the chords G C D and it would sound fine, but the D chord is really functioning as a D7, so you can add the note C over the D as you go back to G. This is a very simple example; there are many other reasons why 7ths will vastly color your playing. In many styles, the two most important notes of a chord are the 3rd and the 7th.

But don't exclude the root, of course. That's obviously very critical for bass.
Click to expand...


Thanks a lot, That is pretty much what I was looking for. I wasnt sure if the triads would be better since most people I play with rarely play 7 chords and I thought it might sound weird if I started using them.

Makes sense though.
 
#6
Certainly you can create plenty of viable music using only triad-based chords, but if you are going to learn music, why not learn and rehearse the whole chord potential? THe worst thing that can happen is that you learn more than you use. But who knows what you'll want to use tomorrow?

I supoose I agree that triads can be "full chord voicings." However, if you learn chords and arpeggios using 7ths, you can typically figure out what the proper 7th should be even if the chord is simply noted "C." Does the 7th always fit? Not always, but it would be hard to make a strong case against it's use in the correct context even if not specified.
 
#8
My advice:

Learn the triads first.
Learn the inversions of triads. root, 1st inv, 2nd inv.
qualities: Major, Minor, Dim, Aug (inversions in spelling only)

Once you have that, then move on to 7th chords.

In our 7 note diatonic scale system using tertian harmony, full chords are 13th chords.
Starting with triads gives a solid foundation, that can then be expanded to 7th, 9th, 11, and 13th chords. (The higher up we go, the less sense inversions make...) Those fuller chords can also be conceived of as stacking up triads.
 
#9
Ed Fuqua said:
If you're building a house, do you put up the walls before the foundation? Or the drywall before the frame?
Click to expand...

I consider 1, 3, 5, and 7 to be the foundation. The foundation is understanding how to construct/outline chords and chord function. The 7th is key to chord function. If you are going to take the time to learn chord construction, why would you choose to learn just enough to robotically play roots, 3rds and 5ths without some understanding of how the chords are functioning? Playing arpeggios with sevenths included is no more difficult than playing arpeggios of roots, 3rds and 5ths.
 
#10
I picked up theory by starting with 3 note chords along with dominant 7ths. That will get you through an awful lot of blues and pop music and that means an awful lot of guitar-based music. The dom 7 is used in rock and blues in ways that extend its 'standard' theoretical use -- presumably because guitar players knew the dom 7 chords and fit them in where they worked.
Once that was in place I went on to 4 note 7th chords and 9ths and extended upper tesnion chords. THat would have been an awful lot to absorb all at once, so I think it makes sense to build up from 3 note chords and dom 7ths as used in probably 80% of pop music.
 
#11
FretlessMainly said:
I consider 1, 3, 5, and 7 to be the foundation. The foundation is understanding how to construct/outline chords and chord function. The 7th is key to chord function. If you are going to take the time to learn chord construction, why would you choose to learn just enough to robotically play roots, 3rds and 5ths without some understanding of how the chords are functioning? Playing arpeggios with sevenths included is no more difficult than playing arpeggios of roots, 3rds and 5ths.
Click to expand...

Feel free to do whatever you want, no skin off my nose.
Good luck with that. Have a blessed day.
 
#13
A few who I respect have recommended learning triads first, which seams good advice, if you are just starting out.

But a few things make me want to suggest simply going for the 7th too:
1.) it's not too hard to add the extra third on top of 1-3-5.
2.) doing so may force you to think about the scale the chord is based on and figure it out, which is good.
3.) the 7th, in the form of the flat 7th is so ubiquitous in all forms of contemporary music, not just jazz, that it is well worth getting under your fingers.

but I suppose you must first be able to knock out your triads easily before these aspects unlock.
 
#15
My thoughts - most of what we do is in four note phrases. Melody loves three close notes then a leap of at least a 3rd, aka, four note melodic phrases. Most of MY music is in 4/4 time and 4/4 loves four 1/4 notes.

Triads = 3 and begs for one more something. Why not let it be another root, seven or an eight? I can see starting out with triads, however, adding the 4th note is not all that hard.

Root on 1, need something else grab a 5 for the 3rd beat. Need something more an 8 is generic and will fit. Need more the 3 or b3 would make a good choice as would the 7 or b7.

Start with triads if you need to. But, move quickly to something else -- four note bass lines, five note pentatonic and eight note scale licks.

Have fun.
 
#16
longfinger said:
My advice:

Learn the triads first.
Learn the inversions of triads. root, 1st inv, 2nd inv.
qualities: Major, Minor, Dim, Aug (inversions in spelling only)

Once you have that, then move on to 7th chords.

In our 7 note diatonic scale system using tertian harmony, full chords are 13th chords.
Starting with triads gives a solid foundation, that can then be expanded to 7th, 9th, 11, and 13th chords. (The higher up we go, the less sense inversions make...) Those fuller chords can also be conceived of as stacking up triads.
Click to expand...

This is IMO the best progression to understand it all. Going over one step at a time, you need to understand and hear the simple stuff before you go over the more complex stuff.
 
#17
It just makes infinitely more sense to me to draw the line here:

root, 3rd, 5th, 7th | 9th, 11th, 13th, rather than here:

root, 3rd, 5th | 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th.

In the latter scenario, you've lumped the 7th with the non-chord tones/color tones/leap to modes (where non-chord tones are affected). Since the 7th is more important to the ear than the 5th for ear recognition of chord function, it seems odd to group the 7th with notes that basically amount to a totally different subject.

That's how I look at it, anyway.
 
#19
FretlessMainly said:
It just makes infinitely more sense to me to draw the line here:

root, 3rd, 5th, 7th | 9th, 11th, 13th, rather than here:

root, 3rd, 5th | 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th.

In the latter scenario, you've lumped the 7th with the non-chord tones/color tones/leap to modes (where non-chord tones are affected). Since the 7th is more important to the ear than the 5th for ear recognition of chord function, it seems odd to group the 7th with notes that basically amount to a totally different subject.

That's how I look at it, anyway.
Click to expand...

The OP may already play 7th, 11th, 13th etc ... the idea is to learn, understand what it is, how it is constructed, how does it work, how does it relate to the chord etc

you don,t need your instrument to do that, to learn that.

It is just a step to put more and more sound in the chord ... there is no point of starting to learn to recognize chord with extension if you can't recognize a simple 3 notes chord from another ...
 

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