I am currently working on the first movement of the Dragonetti, and I am struggling with two important aspects of thumb position technique. The first is that I am having trouble "following the line of the bow" as my teacher calls it. This is moving the bow down closer to the bridge as I play higher. I am having a tendency to have my bow stay in the same place, or even moving away from the bridge as I player higher in thumb position. Does anyone have any tips or exercises that can help me with this issue? My second issue is dealing with vibrato. My vibrato in the higher register is not as controlled as I would like it. Does anyone have any tips on how to maintain a controlled vibrato in the higher register? Thank you for your help.
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Double Bass Trouble With Thumb Position
- Thread starter Natmain
- Start date
For vibrato, play really slow scales in thumb position and each time you start a note, start with a very wide, slow movement (really exaggerate it.) and then gradually speed it up.
The way I learned vibrato in general was by singing and and just copying the sound on bass. 90% of playing a bass is all mental and if you can master it in your mind, you will be able to master it physically.
The way I learned vibrato in general was by singing and and just copying the sound on bass. 90% of playing a bass is all mental and if you can master it in your mind, you will be able to master it physically.
Vibrato in TP is more difficult in general because the physics are different in TP. Your hand might feel locked. Also your fingers are not as straight on the fingerboard in TP as on the rest of the neck, that feels different especially when it comes to vibrato. It just takes more time getting used to but eventually it will come. Just spend as much time on TP as you can.
We are probably all told from Day 1 that best tone comes from bowing at 90 degrees to each string with steady contact point about 1/7 to 1/10 the length of vibrating string above the bridge. And, as we move higher up the strings with the LH, we should maintain this sort of ratio. That's fine if time and the passage allow it.
There are two other possible solutions IMO. The first is to start off with the bow closer to where it should be at the end of an ascending (or descending?) passage and trade off some bow length and weight to maintain balance. The second is to observe that so long as the ENERGY of the bow movement (the way your HAND moves) is directed across at 90 degrees to the string you can produce the same good clear tone with a bow angled more towards the floor that is sliding the contact point towards the bridge. Once you reach the destination you simply square up the bow at 90 degrees and continue as usual. Angling the bow uphill during a descending passage using the same principle works too.
Any time I see clips of the Vienna Philharmonic basses I see their bows always angling down and they are renowned for making a huge sound.
You can practice TP vibrato away from the bass by sitting at a table. Rest the weight of your hand through your arched second finger on the table top in front of you. Or, rest your arched finger on the top left rib of the bass. Move your hand back and forward sideways parallel to the top/rib and observe the springiness and relaxed eveness that is possible. IMO the TP vibrato involves more of this lateral movement of the hand and less rolling of the forearm. You are relying more on the finger twisting, combined with the flesh pad rolling around the finger tip. The forearm roll can still add something to the TP vibrato but the action is more driven by the biceps and triceps alternately pumping the forearm in a flatter movement that is directed diagonally across the string. Only part of this larger diagonal movement translates into shortening and lengthening the string (vibrato). As the hand progressively turns more towards the bridge the vibrato movement along the string becomes shorter (and faster) which suits because the notes are much closer together "up in the snow".
For inspiration check out Alberto Bocini's execution of harmonics while playing Bottesini's "Carnevale di Venezia" on Youtube.
Best wishes,
DP
There are two other possible solutions IMO. The first is to start off with the bow closer to where it should be at the end of an ascending (or descending?) passage and trade off some bow length and weight to maintain balance. The second is to observe that so long as the ENERGY of the bow movement (the way your HAND moves) is directed across at 90 degrees to the string you can produce the same good clear tone with a bow angled more towards the floor that is sliding the contact point towards the bridge. Once you reach the destination you simply square up the bow at 90 degrees and continue as usual. Angling the bow uphill during a descending passage using the same principle works too.
Any time I see clips of the Vienna Philharmonic basses I see their bows always angling down and they are renowned for making a huge sound.
You can practice TP vibrato away from the bass by sitting at a table. Rest the weight of your hand through your arched second finger on the table top in front of you. Or, rest your arched finger on the top left rib of the bass. Move your hand back and forward sideways parallel to the top/rib and observe the springiness and relaxed eveness that is possible. IMO the TP vibrato involves more of this lateral movement of the hand and less rolling of the forearm. You are relying more on the finger twisting, combined with the flesh pad rolling around the finger tip. The forearm roll can still add something to the TP vibrato but the action is more driven by the biceps and triceps alternately pumping the forearm in a flatter movement that is directed diagonally across the string. Only part of this larger diagonal movement translates into shortening and lengthening the string (vibrato). As the hand progressively turns more towards the bridge the vibrato movement along the string becomes shorter (and faster) which suits because the notes are much closer together "up in the snow".
For inspiration check out Alberto Bocini's execution of harmonics while playing Bottesini's "Carnevale di Venezia" on Youtube.
Best wishes,
DP
I have tried angling my bow towards the ground slightly when ascending, and I have found that it has helped me a lot. I have also tried placing my bass at a steeper angle to my body whilst sitting. I have found that this helps me use gravity to allow me to more easily move the bow up or down while playing. Do you have any thoughts on this?
For bow position you might want to ask yourself, as you play begin to play each note, how much resistance am I feeling in the string as I transfer my weight into it via the bow?
In this way the question changes from what do I need to do, to what am I doing?
Applying this, I find that I tend to lose contact with the string in shifts and string crossings. The next step of correcting this is adjusting other points discussed here like bow angle, weight etc to ensure that the feeling of weight transferring into the string remains constant or, better still, controlled.
In this way the question changes from what do I need to do, to what am I doing?
Applying this, I find that I tend to lose contact with the string in shifts and string crossings. The next step of correcting this is adjusting other points discussed here like bow angle, weight etc to ensure that the feeling of weight transferring into the string remains constant or, better still, controlled.
I think the pedagogical purpose of the 'keep the bow at 90°' instruction is to get the student thinking about it. But actually, in practice that's unnecessary... what is necessary is to get control of all the variables, including where your bow is on the string, and having the bow at 90° is perhaps the best starting point for gaining that control. Since you can't quickly change the angle from 90°, not during a stroke anyway, you have to make adjusting the position up and down the string something you do in advance during the turnaround.
Exactly where you play relative to the bridge is a matter of what sound you're trying for anyway... try an experiment. Place your bow at about half your normal distance from the bridge, fingering a note in half position. Now play, taking care to use a really slow bow, and slowly increase the weight on the string. Notice that you get a fairly hard, focused tone, but that if you try to control it, it won't start to make the harsh sound of sul ponticello.
Now try that again with the note an octave higher, on the same string, and go closer to the bridge again. Up here, the tone isn't so much 'harder' than normal, as it is less fuzzy and more focused... this is where you want to be for a concerto, mostly.
Exactly where you play relative to the bridge is a matter of what sound you're trying for anyway... try an experiment. Place your bow at about half your normal distance from the bridge, fingering a note in half position. Now play, taking care to use a really slow bow, and slowly increase the weight on the string. Notice that you get a fairly hard, focused tone, but that if you try to control it, it won't start to make the harsh sound of sul ponticello.
Now try that again with the note an octave higher, on the same string, and go closer to the bridge again. Up here, the tone isn't so much 'harder' than normal, as it is less fuzzy and more focused... this is where you want to be for a concerto, mostly.
just to be clear; by angling the bow you mean pointing with the tip more to the ground when going to higher positions? and pointing the tip more up going to lower positions?
Yes, Les Fret, the energy delivered to the string (the direction your hand moves) is at 90 degrees even while the bow is angled up or down and the contact point is sliding. You can maintain your grip on the string with the bow and the sound will remain clear and focused. However, if the angle is by more than a few degrees and you move the bow in the same direction as it points then the string vibration and sound will become distorted. This, as I understand it, is why we bow at or very close to 90 degrees - for best tone.
Hey, Jimnastix, that is good advice above.
DP
Hey, Jimnastix, that is good advice above.
DP
Jeff Bradetich advocates the 'dip at the tip' method. That is dipping the tip at the end of a up stroke and dipping the frog at the end of a down stroke. But I think that is only for smooth bow changes? Not sure how many apply this all the time?
Yes, but this is perhaps wandering a little off topic and could be worth a new thread. As much as he dips at each end his contact point appears to remain steady (seen in one of his 8 lessons you can find on Youtube).
Cheers,
DP
Cheers,
DP
Yes I have seen that lesson on YT and also I have followed his Mittenwald summer course once. It still has to do with angling the bow at the end of a stroke. So I thought it was related and also interesting.
In response to OP, have you done the Gary Karr "vomit" exercise? This is a wonderful way to make bow placement natural and beautiful. This is an absolutely essential (yet wretched) element of our pedagogy.
Can you pls elaborate a little more on the Gary Karr 'vomit' exercise? Would like to try that - thanks!
Tony, the "vomit" exercise is well documented online. It's a staple of modern pedagogy. It's a glissando exercise but the true benefit is bow placement. Look on youtube or just type "Gary Karr vomit exercise" into google, or preferably, get a teacher to show you.
