Double Bass truly odd time sigs

[WalterBush]

i tried counting up the notes in each bar but due to the frankly unpleasant complexity i keep on getting different numbers. we tried
to find something between an 8th and a 16th, but couldn't get it to make sense in relation to anything else.

Key words--this composer's whole philosophy is that art should mainly only make sense in relation to itself, and only use other work as a reference, a boundary, sort of, to define the difference between the work and other work around it. He also likes exploring the difference between his piece and others. But it won't make sense in relation to other pieces of music, because it's not supposed to. For that matter, after looking up some of his other works, this guy doesn't necessarily have all the parts of his composition playing the same tempo, much less time signature!

This is a wierd guy, as soon as my youngest wakes up from his mid-day nap I'm running to go buy some of his recorded works--I want to hear if there is a difference, and if 4/12 etc accomplish what he's going for.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I'm still waiting for somebody to write me a single 12th note.

 

[Ben Rose]

IMO, when 12/8 is used to notate a 4/4 meter with a triplet feel, while it may be easier to read than seeing a bunch of triplet markings, it is a compromised description of the actual meter. More often than not, the dotted quarter carries the pulse, rather than the 8th note. It is akin to marking a bar of standard 4/4 time as 8/8, but I don't know of any widely used alternative. (And since most all of the musicians I know are accustomed to reading the 12/8 meter, that's probably what I'll continue to use)

Is the composer is labelling the meter with 12th notes in an attempt to add clarity? I'd like to see other examples of the 4/12 meter.

 

[jazzbassnerd]

I think I can see your point Ed. The notation of a twelfth note is basically impossible in the way that "we" notate music. I think that this basic notation is besides the point for this composer (I have never heard, nor seen his music. I'm just judging by what's been said and the fact that he wrote 4/12). I have seen music without bar lines and the interpretation is definitely up to the performer in that.

Before when the idea of Holst's Planets came up, interpretation was mentioned; you responded with the question "and the pitches were different?" Very rational. But I would say that maybe this piece with 4/12 would have different rhythm between performers and different tempo. Not necessarily the same type of interpretation as "normal" classical music.

I think that once we get into music that has 4/12 notated, we can't try to find a way to make it fit into our current way of thinking about notation. The composer obviously is thinking something that cannot be notated by the current method we have to notate. I would love to hear this guy talk specifically about this piece and why he wrote 4/12.

Yes, it could end up being complete BS, that is possible. But I would tend to guess that he has a reason for doing this. And that he could give us reasons why 4/12 is the correct time signature rather than 4/8 with a new tempo or however else the "same thing" could be notated.

 

[WalterBush]

I'm still waiting for somebody to write me a single 12th note.

Now I'm beginning to think you may just be being obstinate. Fine, here. Take a gander at this. It's from a solo cello piece of Ferneyhough's, but I think you'll get the idea. This is all accepted notation in the classical community, according to a violin player I emailed with this.

Invalid Link Removed


Which one is a twelfth note? I think it depends on how long the note in front of it was. Shoot, if I could even read this thing I'd be out gigging with a cello right now, and not sitting at home


And again, a link to an interview of his:
http://www.sospeso.com/contents/art...eyhough_p1.html

 

[jazzbassnerd]

By the way, I just wanted to say that discussions like this make me love this website more and more.

 

[WalterBush]

By the way, I just wanted to say that discussions like this make me love this website more and more.

Yeah, they're the main reason I'm here

 

[Ed Fuqua]

J7s- I can't get that thing big enough to tell what's going on, but I can tell that it's not a note, it's a couple of measures. Which is, once again, my point.

The following are notes. You don't need a time signature or 3 pages of text to determine their rhythmic value. You don't need the composer explaining what he really means that they mean. If you put two of the firts one together, you get the second one. It doesn't matter if you are in 2/4 or 23/2, you put 2 eighth notes together you get a quarter. If you want the quarter in one measure to be a different tempo/feel in another one, you can modulate by basing that on the current tempo.

 

[WalterBush]

You show me a black ball with a stick and a flag on any other piece, and I'll say it's an 1/8th note, too. Because inside any form of music I'm playing, that's what it is. This guy, and others like him, are busy changing all that within the context of their pieces because they want each piece to be defined by itself, not by any outside influence, as much as possible.

I can't show what he uses to notate 12th note, because his work is still under copyright, not freely available on the web, and the scores are expensive, to boot. Not enough composers are using 12th notes for the visual representation to be posted on the web, either. Instead, I'll see if the local libraries or music stores have a copy I can look at, and I'll draw one up and post it. That may take a few days to look up, though. If someone else has a piece of his music, I'd sure love to see it if posting it wouldn't break any laws.

 

[velvetkevorkian]

since i started this messy affair, i'll see if i can scan a wee excerpt from the score (just a couple of bars) and post it. i'll get back to you....

i think jabberwock777 is along the right lines here; this piece is (as i said earlier) ultra modernistic, and the tempo is constantly varying; however, to the casual listener without a score, it does seem pretty, um, "free".

ultimately, though, the rules of music have been evolved by a continual breaking of the last set of musical rules- i think this is just on more step in that chain. so, ed, maybe soon someone will think of a way to write a 12th note so it does look different without using a triplet bracket.

and now, ladies and gentlemen, let the show resume....

EDIT: in that interview brian ferneyhough expresses it very well IMHO. as you wold bloody well hope, i supppose... but he makes the point that he does use it mainly as a way of modulating the tempo, rather than as a meter for a whole piece. i think that's what i was trying to get at when i called it "free" above...

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Exactly - there's nothing new here - nothing "ultra modernistic"

Composers were developing their own notation in the last century - Stockhausen has written many pieces with unique forms of notation, totally different to the standard and this kind of thing has been happening for more than 50 years !!

But what we are talking about here is just "fiddling about " with the existing system - not very 'original' ...?

 

[globey]

so... do we come in on the 4?? Or on the 1??

 

[Ed Fuqua]

since i started this messy affair, i'll see if i can scan a wee excerpt from the score (just a couple of bars) and post it. i'll get back to you....

I don't want a couple of bars, I want to see a single "12th note". If you can't write one, bereft of ANY OTHER referential data, then there ain't one.

Believe me, after living with the Matthew Barney retrospective for 14 weeks, I'm well used to "artists" whose work can only convey meaning and intent through several pages of text. And those who feel that they don't actually HAVE to create any "thing", because they've explained the concept behind it. I'm coming from a place where, if I COULD talk about, then I wouldn't have to play it. The reason music exists is because there is a range of thought and feeling that CAN'T be expressed in language.

 

[jazzbassnerd]

The reason music exists is because there is a range of thought and feeling that CAN'T be expressed in language.

I think that is why we are having trouble or talking about the twelfth note. Also, just because we can't give you a single picture of what a twelfth note looks like doesn't mean that someone can write it. My guess, it looks like an eighth note, but it isn't, it's a twelfth note, because that's what the composer wants it to be wants it to be (Counter argument will probably be a picture of a small animal with the caption of "7th note," or a picture of a scribble, same caption; and if you put that in a piece of music, I'd believe you, because that would be your way to notate what you want the player to do).

Now we can argue whether it is necessary or justifiable or if the composer is just being weird for the sake of being weird, but regardless of that discussion, he still wrote a twelfth note. And that, in one way or another, makes it exist. At least in that piece of music.

Also, while I haven't seen many people talk about twelfth notes, this concept did come up in high school marching band. The guy who taught the battery (marching percussion) would often say things like "don't rush on the twentieth notes." He could have said don't rush the five-lets, but what is the difference? Five-lets subdivide the bar into 20 beats, just as eighth notes do into 8 beats, or quarters into 4. So, while I don't know how to show you a single twelfth note besides as one eighth note under a triplet bar with two eighth note rests after it, I think that the these notes do exist.

I would guess that you're not going to play any of this guy's music, but I would wonder if you heard it if you would enjoy it. Because if you did, I don't think the twelfth notes would matter, And if you didn't, I still don't think the twelfth notes would matter.

Geez enough rambling from me, I should just go practice playing in tune. That's a better starting place.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

If anything means anything, then everything means nothing. When Harry Partch was writing his music, he didn't say that the third space in the staff in F clef was G# plus about 14cents, he went and created a new way of notating microtonal pitches. One that has nothing to do with Western 12 tone notation. I'm not saying that you can't HAVE a 12th note, just that you can't notate it in Western 12 tone notation. "R -E -D" either means red or it means wombat, saying that it means red until you want it to mean wombat doesn't really do much to help communicate.

 

[velvetkevorkian]

so... do we come in on the 4?? Or on the 1??

just follow the cellos

 

[Jeff Michael]

Part of the process of getting a graduate degree in composition is showing that you have something new to add to the pot.

I know I'm relatively underschooled, and maybe not even all that smart. But I found it ridiculous that novelty for novelty's sake was important to getting a graduate degree in composition...right up until I came to realize the ridiculousness of having a graduate degree in composition. But I long for enlightenment, so: what exactly does one do with a graduate degree in composition?

 

[Jeff Michael]

What would 12th notes be called in countries that don't refer to rhythmic subdivisions based on the (often as not untrue) assumption that a measure is four beats?

 

[velvetkevorkian]

I know I'm relatively underschooled, and maybe not even all that smart. But I found it ridiculous that novelty for novelty's sake was important to getting a graduate degree in composition...right up until I came to realize the ridiculousness of having a graduate degree in composition. But I long for enlightenment, so: what exactly does one do with a graduate degree in composition?

basically, a composition graduate is a composer. getting the degree is just process of studying methods of composition to allow the composer to express themselves in their music, just as an instrumentalist studies long and hard so they can express themselves through THEIR music.

as for novelty; i think its not so much about novelty as innovation (i'm not implying any innovativeness, or lack of, on anyones part here btw! ). if no composer innovated, we'd still be listening to... well, i was going to say medieval music, but it would be more like whatever the very first musical sound was. banging of rocks? rock music? oh dear....

 

[velvetkevorkian]

What would 12th notes be called in countries that don't refer to rhythmic subdivisions based on the (often as not untrue) assumption that a measure is four beats?

there is no assumption that a measure is 4 beats. we just use the semibreve/whole note as a frame of reference; it has nothing to do with the actual length of the measures. thats my understanding, anyway...