Truss Rod Help!

[TheFlashSawyer]

Hi all,

I've recently put a Fender Jazz neck on a Squier P bass body just for a little change. I'm not very experienced in adjusting intonation so would like some more experienced advice.

I can't seem to get the action to sit right on it, even after setting my bridge saddles super low. I've also adjusted the truss rod at the neck end a couple of times left & right (usually two turns) just to see what difference it made, and it's not done much.

I've attached a few pictures for you to have a look at, hopefully they're clear enough.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance

- Theflashsawyer

 

[mdogs]

Take it to a pro.

 

[Mark Desmo]

I wouldn't f*ck about with truss rod if you don't know what you're doing, you could easily strip the threads.
You're ok loosening it, but not tightening it. By the look of yours, it needs tightening a tad.

I would never personally tighten a truss rod without clamping the neck first, to take the tension off the truss rod.

I'm sure there are people who will say it's ok to do that, but I'll never do it, and I'll never strip truss rod threads either, as a result of that.

It's also quite difficult to make a judgement on yours, based solely on the pics. One ideally needs to have the bass in front of one, to make a reasonable assessment of the situation.

 

[Turnaround]

Go over to the Hardware Setup and Repair forum and look at the information in the sticky "ALL BASIC SETUP QUESTIONS ANSWERED HERE" at the top. That will guide you in what to do.

Hardware, Setup & Repair [BG]

 

[NicJimBass]

You COULD take it to someone, but, unless you go to extremes, it's hard to mess anything up (except for the truss rod- see below).

Your bass looks like it could use a shim. Remove the strings, then the neck. Take a business card and cut it to the shape of the end of the neck (the part closest to the body). The card will be with width of the neck, and maybe a quarter inch or so long. I sometimes go to where the first set of screws go in the neck. Put everything back together and see where you're at. You'll likely have to raise the saddles, but the strings will be closer to the neck.

As far as the truss rod goes, the phrase "lefty loosey, righty tighty" usually applies. When looking at the truss rod nut, which I assume is at the headstock, you'll want to turn the allen wrench clockwise ("right") to tighten it, and straighten the neck. You can look down the edge of the neck, where the frets end, and see whether the neck is forward or back bowed. The truss rod is where you don't want to go to extremes. Some people say to only turn a quarter turn a day, but I've never had an issue with simply adjusting the neck to where it's close to straight, no matter how many turns it takes. Regardless, take it slow, and don't force anything. That is an important piece of the neck, and if it breaks, the repair will be so expensive that a replacement will likely be cheaper.

Intonation is easy once you get the hang of it, but may be frustrating at first. I usually play the harmonic at either the 12th or (if the bass has one) 24th fret and compare it to the fretted note on the same fret. Make sure they are both in tune. If the fretted note is sharp, "tighten" the saddle screw a bit, push down on the string to set the witness point, and tune again. If it's flat, "loosen" the saddle screw and tune again, ad nauseum, until things are playing in tune. It's tedious, and it's best to have a very sensitive tuner, like a strobe tuner (I use a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-300), but you can get close with most any pedal tuner.

A ton of people are scared to mess with these things, and that's cool. I'm not, and have saved time and money over the years by teaching myself how to do all this stuff. I've yet to mess anything up beyond repair, and I can set up and intonate any bass I get within an hour or two. Good luck!!

 

[Vinnie Boombatz]

I've also adjusted the truss rod at the neck end a couple of times left & right (usually two turns) just to see what difference it made, and it's not done much.

- Theflashsawyer

Put the tools down, take it to someone who knows what they're doing and in the meantime do some research and reading and learn more about what these adjustments are supposed to do and what they aren't supposed to do. You should never have to turn the truss rod two turns one way or the other to get the neck relief set properly. You obviously have an issue with a difference in the depth of the neck pocket. What type of neck is the Jazz neck; ie: MIM, MIA< another Squier? Maybe they're just not meant to match up. I doubt a shim would even help.

 

[briandavismurph]

Hi all,

I've recently put a Fender Jazz neck on a Squier P bass body just for a little change. I'm not very experienced in adjusting intonation so would like some more experienced advice.

I can't seem to get the action to sit right on it, even after setting my bridge saddles super low. I've also adjusted the truss rod at the neck end a couple of times left & right (usually two turns) just to see what difference it made, and it's not done much.

I've attached a few pictures for you to have a look at, hopefully they're clear enough.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance

- Theflashsawyer

Carl used to be Lakland head luthier, watch this 2 part video and fear no more

 

[Vinnie Boombatz]

You COULD take it to someone, but, unless you go to extremes, it's hard to mess anything up (except for the truss rod- see below).

Your bass looks like it could use a shim. Remove the strings, then the neck. Take a business card and cut it to the shape of the end of the neck (the part closest to the body). The card will be with width of the neck, and maybe a quarter inch or so long. I sometimes go to where the first set of screws go in the neck. Put everything back together and see where you're at. You'll likely have to raise the saddles, but the strings will be closer to the neck.

As far as the truss rod goes, the phrase "lefty loosey, righty tighty" usually applies. When looking at the truss rod nut, which I assume is at the headstock, you'll want to turn the allen wrench clockwise ("right") to tighten it, and straighten the neck. You can look down the edge of the neck, where the frets end, and see whether the neck is forward or back bowed. The truss rod is where you don't want to go to extremes. Some people say to only turn a quarter turn a day, but I've never had an issue with simply adjusting the neck to where it's close to straight, no matter how many turns it takes. Regardless, take it slow, and don't force anything. That is an important piece of the neck, and if it breaks, the repair will be so expensive that a replacement will likely be cheaper.

Intonation is easy once you get the hang of it, but may be frustrating at first. I usually play the harmonic at either the 12th or (if the bass has one) 24th fret and compare it to the fretted note on the same fret. Make sure they are both in tune. If the fretted note is sharp, "tighten" the saddle screw a bit, push down on the string to set the witness point, and tune again. If it's flat, "loosen" the saddle screw and tune again, ad nauseum, until things are playing in tune. It's tedious, and it's best to have a very sensitive tuner, like a strobe tuner (I use a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner ST-300), but you can get close with most any pedal tuner.

A ton of people are scared to mess with these things, and that's cool. I'm not, and have saved time and money over the years by teaching myself how to do all this stuff. I've yet to mess anything up beyond repair, and I can set up and intonate any bass I get within an hour or two. Good luck!!

You might not be afraid to work on your instruments because you may actually know what you're doing. But in the OP's case he's all over the place. I am by no means discouraging anyone in working on their own gear. I do most of my own work, basic set-ups, making nuts from blanks, bone saddles for my acoustics (both drop in and slotted saddles) and learned by doing it myself, reading, watching videos, etc. BUT, before you dive in you first need to actually understand HOW to set up a bass, what each adjustment actually does (and doesn't do), and do it in the proper order.

OP is talking about not being able to intonate the bass properly, which is actually the very last thing you do AFTER adjusting everything else. First adjust the relief to where you like it. Once the relief is where it's supposed to be you don't later on start cranking in the truss rod again to get your action lover/higher. If you get to a step and things aren't right, it means there's something else causing the problem.

Based on those pictures with the saddles where they are and the ridiculously high action, a shim ain't gonna cut it.

 

[NicJimBass]

You might not be afraid to work on your instruments because you may actually know what you're doing. But in the OP's case he's all over the place. I am by no means discouraging anyone in working on their own gear. I do most of my own work, basic set-ups, making nuts from blanks, bone saddles for my acoustics (both drop in and slotted saddles) and learned by doing it myself, reading, watching videos, etc. BUT, before you dive in you first need to actually understand HOW to set up a bass, what each adjustment actually does (and doesn't do), and do it in the proper order.

OP is talking about not being able to intonate the bass properly, which is actually the very last thing you do AFTER adjusting everything else. First adjust the relief to where you like it. Once the relief is where it's supposed to be you don't later on start cranking in the truss rod again to get your action lover/higher. If you get to a step and things aren't right, it means there's something else causing the problem.

Based on those pictures with the saddles where they are and the ridiculously high action, a shim ain't gonna cut it.

My point is that at one time, I had no clue what I was doing either. I researched as best I could, and, through trial and error, learned. I was trying my best, within the limited medium of text on a forum, to describe what I do, and what he should do.

Based on the pics he posted, it looks like there may be a back bow in the neck. Could be the angle, I'm not sure. It also looks as though the neck goes into the body at a slight angle. A shim should and would help get the neck to sit at less of an angle. Is it the only solution? Nope, but, it's one of the things on the list that can't hurt, and can definitely help.

 

[Vinnie Boombatz]

My point is that at one time, I had no clue what I was doing either. I researched as best I could, and, through trial and error, learned. I was trying my best, within the limited medium of text on a forum, to describe what I do, and what he should do.

Based on the pics he posted, it looks like there may be a back bow in the neck. Could be the angle, I'm not sure. It also looks as though the neck goes into the body at a slight angle. A shim should and would help get the neck to sit at less of an angle. Is it the only solution? Nope, but, it's one of the things on the list that can't hurt, and can definitely help.

backbone may be present, who knows, and I didn't look that closely, but lets just say there is a back bow. That means once the relief is adjusted for correct relief, it means that crazy high action will go even higher, meaning that a shim would most likely need to be a chunk of wood, not something the thickness of a credit card. I think a shim is a bandaid on a bullet wound in this case.

And I'll restate what I said previously, yes, everyone should be able to work on their own gear and perform basic adjustments and set-ups, but you need to put the time in and learn and understand the basics first. Cranking away on a truss rod and talking about not being able to intonate and then posting pictures with sky-high action just give the impression that the OP has no clue, which isn't a criticism, just stating the obvious and encourage him to keep at it, but first get a basic working knowledge of that these things actually are meant to adjust. Gotta crawl before you can walk, and gotta walk before you can run!

 

[NicJimBass]

backbone may be present, who knows, and I didn't look that closely, but lets just say there is a back bow. That means once the relief is adjusted for correct relief, it means that crazy high action will go even higher, meaning that a shim would most likely need to be a chunk of wood, not something the thickness of a credit card. I think a shim is a bandaid on a bullet wound in this case.

And I'll restate what I said previously, yes, everyone should be able to work on their own gear and perform basic adjustments and set-ups, but you need to put the time in and learn and understand the basics first. Cranking away on a truss rod and talking about not being able to intonate and then posting pictures with sky-high action just give the impression that the OP has no clue, which isn't a criticism, just stating the obvious and encourage him to keep at it, but first get a basic working knowledge of that these things actually are meant to adjust. Gotta crawl before you can walk, and gotta walk before you can run!

We're on the same page here. He needs to learn how to do this stuff, especially if he'd like to do this regularly. You have mentioned that people need to put in the time in and learn, which is exactly what he is doing. He's attempting things on his own, and asking the forum for help. I didn't have the forum when I started, so he's already miles ahead.

I made it very clear in my post that the truss rod can be adjusted too far and needs to be adjusted slowly and carefully. He's attempted to adjust the rod, but has only gone 2 turns in either direction, and hasn't made mention of feeling it coming to a stop or being hard to turn. To me, that signals that he need to adjust it further, albeit, slowly. He's, in my eyes, on the right track, but simply need to do a bit more adjusting to get it right. The "back bow" I see could very easily be the angle of the picture. The neck may have a forward bow, and may need to have the rod tightened. As long as he does things slowly and carefully, there shouldn't be an issue.

Also, I'm not saying a shim will be the cure-all. It's not, by a long shot, but it's another tool in my arsenal that I've used to great effect on a number of basses. I honestly wish I'd learned about them sooner, thus my mentioning it here. It's something he can try, and if it doesn't work, is easily reversible. I don't see the harm in suggesting it, even a little.

Bottom line, we both agree that he needs to learn how to do things properly. I am doing my best to give him some of the knowledge I've learned over the years.

 

[Vinnie Boombatz]

We're on the same page here. He needs to learn how to do this stuff, especially if he'd like to do this regularly. You have mentioned that people need to put in the time in and learn, which is exactly what he is doing. He's attempting things on his own, and asking the forum for help. I didn't have the forum when I started, so he's already miles ahead.

I made it very clear in my post that the truss rod can be adjusted too far and needs to be adjusted slowly and carefully. He's attempted to adjust the rod, but has only gone 2 turns in either direction, and hasn't made mention of feeling it coming to a stop or being hard to turn. To me, that signals that he need to adjust it further, albeit, slowly. He's, in my eyes, on the right track, but simply need to do a bit more adjusting to get it right. The "back bow" I see could very easily be the angle of the picture. The neck may have a forward bow, and may need to have the rod tightened. As long as he does things slowly and carefully, there shouldn't be an issue.

Also, I'm not saying a shim will be the cure-all. It's not, by a long shot, but it's another tool in my arsenal that I've used to great effect on a number of basses. I honestly wish I'd learned about them sooner, thus my mentioning it here. It's something he can try, and if it doesn't work, is easily reversible. I don't see the harm in suggesting it, even a little.

Bottom line, we both agree that he needs to learn how to do things properly. I am doing my best to give him some of the knowledge I've learned over the years.

Totally agree with you, which is why I mentioned in my replies that I wasn't criticizing him, just helping re-direct and prioritize the steps he should take. Jumping in with a project like this one is a bit much. Maybe start with a bass you know will set up well and doesn't throw you any curveballs so you know where everything is supposed to be, how it's supposed to feel during adjustment and how it's supposed to feel after adjustment, etc.

What I do disagree with is your rationale of his truss rod. He's turned it both ways for about 2 turns. Then earlier you mention you may have seen a backbow from his pics. First and foremost if he doesn't know what the truss rod is supposed to do, but is turning it both ways without getting the his desired result (something that isn't what the truss rod is supposed to do), he shouldn't keep messing with it until he has an understanding of what that truss rod's function is. And yes, if there is a back bow, he needs to tighten that thing more most likely. All if takes though, is to continue cranking in the wrong direction (tightening it) and he can bust that rod. It's harder to do than most people think, but it's still possible. Adjust it a little at a time, string it up with tension, measure the relief, and continue accordingly. Then move on to the next step. Either way I stick by what I said. Work on your own basses, but a good, basic understanding of what you breed to do means you will still make mistakes along the way but those mistakes won't be permanent and are easily corrected. Go at it without having that basic knowledge and you're asking for trouble. It's like buying an old car in pieces and expecting to be able to put it together in a weekend, but you've never changed the oil in a car before.

 

[vaesto]

Hi.

The reason behind the scenes is: Fender Jazz neck on a Squier P bass body. It looks like body pocket is too deep for that neck. Hence huge string height over the fretboard. You need a shim not he truss rod adjustment. You need to put the shim right under the neck's end. Experiment with various thicknesses because it is not possible to tell how much tilt is required.

Alternatively you can quickly check the relief by pressing string at 1st and lets say 16th frets. Just check the distance between 8th fret and the fret - it should be around 0.2-0.3 mm. If it is greater - tighten rod a bit (approx. 1/2 of a clockwise turn to compesate 0.1 mm). If strings hit the frets - loosen it accordingly.

 

[NicJimBass]

What I do disagree with is your rationale of his truss rod. He's turned it both ways for about 2 turns. Then earlier you mention you may have seen a backbow from his pics. First and foremost if he doesn't know what the truss rod is supposed to do, but is turning it both ways without getting the his desired result (something that isn't what the truss rod is supposed to do), he shouldn't keep messing with it until he has an understanding of what that truss rod's function is. And yes, if there is a back bow, he needs to tighten that thing more most likely. All if takes though, is to continue cranking in the wrong direction (tightening it) and he can bust that rod. It's harder to do than most people think, but it's still possible. Adjust it a little at a time, string it up with tension, measure the relief, and continue accordingly. Then move on to the next step. Either way I stick by what I said. Work on your own basses, but a good, basic understanding of what you breed to do means you will still make mistakes along the way but those mistakes won't be permanent and are easily corrected. Go at it without having that basic knowledge and you're asking for trouble. It's like buying an old car in pieces and expecting to be able to put it together in a weekend, but you've never changed the oil in a car before.

Again, I feel we're saying the same thing, albeit, differently.

He seems to know at least what a truss rod does, in it's most basic form, as he tried turning it, but didn't see a result either way. He says "2 turns", but that could mean anything from 2 full rotations of the truss rod nut, to 2 movements (could be a quarter to half turn) in either direction. If he noticed no difference, I would say it was likely the latter of the two. All that being said, I think you touched on a major point that I failed to learn early on- the truss rod is there to hold the neck in it's adjusted state, not make the actual adjustments. I usually pull the neck back slightly, then adjust the rod, which makes things much easier.

Agreed, he can bust the truss rod, but, again, it's not going to be a matter of turning smoothly then all of a sudden it pops, at least not from everything I've ever read. It'll get tight, and you have to force it past it's breaking point- which is why I made the disclaimer to do it slowly and carefully. Lots of players think that instruments are these fragile museum pieces, when in reality, they are tools. They're made to be played, to take on the road, to be adjusted. Once people realize that, the fear of doing the work yourself goes away.

It sounds like this is a parts bass, not some vintage instrument. If it's his only instrument, and he makes a living from it, I would suggest either doing much more research before making adjustments that could jeopardize that, or taking it to a pro. I get the feeling this is a project bass that he's putting together, which makes it the perfect candidate to learn on. It seems as though you are encouraging him to learn how to make the adjustments, while at the same time discouraging him from actually making the adjustments. I, for one, learn much better by doing, as opposed to watching/ reading/ etc. If this bass is important, leave it with a pro. If not, get your hands dirty (carefully) and figure out what everything does. It'll make things much smoother in the future, and will pay for itself many times over.

 

[TheFlashSawyer]

Hi guys,

Sorry I've not logged in for some time! Thanks for all your advise on this.

I've recently moved the neck back onto a VM Jazz so the overall action is a lot better now. I've still had to use the 'credit card' trick underneath the neck to body to allow the neck to sit more forward.

The only issue now is I'm getting some fret buzz around the 13/14th fret, but only on the A & D strings. I read that this could be to do with the angle of the saddles so I've adjusted them to try and account for the curve of the neck and it's helped a little but there's still some buzz (only slight), any tips on this?

 

[TheFlashSawyer]

Hi.

The reason behind the scenes is: Fender Jazz neck on a Squier P bass body. It looks like body pocket is too deep for that neck. Hence huge string height over the fretboard. You need a shim not he truss rod adjustment. You need to put the shim right under the neck's end. Experiment with various thicknesses because it is not possible to tell how much tilt is required.

Alternatively you can quickly check the relief by pressing string at 1st and lets say 16th frets. Just check the distance between 8th fret and the fret - it should be around 0.2-0.3 mm. If it is greater - tighten rod a bit (approx. 1/2 of a clockwise turn to compesate 0.1 mm). If strings hit the frets - loosen it accordingly.

Thanks a lot! I did try the shim and it helped a lot

 

[NicJimBass]

Hi guys,

Sorry I've not logged in for some time! Thanks for all your advise on this.

I've recently moved the neck back onto a VM Jazz so the overall action is a lot better now. I've still had to use the 'credit card' trick underneath the neck to body to allow the neck to sit more forward.

The only issue now is I'm getting some fret buzz around the 13/14th fret, but only on the A & D strings. I read that this could be to do with the angle of the saddles so I've adjusted them to try and account for the curve of the neck and it's helped a little but there's still some buzz (only slight), any tips on this?

A lot of time, buzzing at specific frets means there is a high fret (or a couple). Only way to truly remedy this is to file the frets, then dress them. All that is much better left to a tech who knows what they're doing.

It may be a good idea to ask around and find a good tech in your area. See if they'll let you watch them adjust the bass, or at the very least take measurements of everything after they're done, and try to replicate it on another bass. They might also be able to see any other issues the bass has that you might not see.

 

[TheFlashSawyer]

A lot of time, buzzing at specific frets means there is a high fret (or a couple). Only way to truly remedy this is to file the frets, then dress them. All that is much better left to a tech who knows what they're doing.

It may be a good idea to ask around and find a good tech in your area. See if they'll let you watch them adjust the bass, or at the very least take measurements of everything after they're done, and try to replicate it on another bass. They might also be able to see any other issues the bass has that you might not see.

I see what you mean. To be honest it's only slight anyway and after adjusting the bridge saddles a little more it's not a big issue - it's just something that I'll always know is there but most people probably wouldn't care to notice ahah

I do know a few techs in my area but I was just looking to save some cash on this, and as you quite accurately said above this is just a project bass to help with my own understanding of intonation, setups, etc