Double Bass Trying out bows

[Mark_T]

I’m testing out some new bows. I have a good one that I really like, but I’ve been debating adding/changing a backup. Here’s a video of me playing three possible backup bows. I’m sort of sightreading this excerpt so it’s not probably the best example of my playing (also you can hear me improving as I go along...).

What’s interesting to me is that the three bows all sound reasonably similar in the recording but to my ear they sound very different when I’m playing them. I’m not sure if I should trust the mic or my ear - what’s a better representation of what an audience would hear?

I won’t name the bows until later; you can possibly guess what they are but try to focus on the sound rather than that.

 

[Nathan Eskridge]

To my ear bow 1 has a fuller richer tone, and sharper articulation

 

[Tom Lane]

No brainer, the mic doesn't lie but your ear is paid. Run through them again, this time with a tune you have cold, and run through that tune twice with each bow before you turn on the recorder. Wait a week. Listen to the recording. It will speak the truth.

 

[yendor8530]

No brainer, the mic doesn't lie but your ear is paid. Run through them again, this time with a tune you have cold, and run through that tune twice with each bow before you turn on the recorder. Wait a week. Listen to the recording. It will speak the truth.

That's funny I would have said to go with what your ear because the more you like your sound the better you play. I read a book of the story of a guy making a violin for one of the emerson quartet. In the end the other members liked tthe new instrument more but he went back to playing his old one because he felt better on it.

 

[Tom Lane]

That's funny I would have said to go with what your ear because the more you like your sound the better you play. I read a book of the story of a guy making a violin for one of the emerson quartet. In the end the other members liked tthe new instrument more but he went back to playing his old one because he felt better on it.

I can see that view, but ultimately, I think you're fooling yourself if you like what you're hearing better than your recording. In that case, you're hearing what you imagine the sound is, not what it is. That's assuming you have a good recording. A inappropriate mic wouldn't be helpful.

 

[Mark_T]

I recorded using a Røde USB microphone and an iPad. The mic was probably about 4 feet from the bow, next to the iPad. I made a couple of other recordings too. I might make one or two more today, and then think on it for a bit. My opinions have changed pretty wildly over the past two days or so. One thing that doesn’t help is that the hair on the bows is quite different, and I normally prefer good quality white hair to black.

 

[LouisF]

I don't know, Tom: wouldn't you want to be able to trust the immediate feedback you got from your equipment (bass and bow) rather than trying to remember and recreate a sound you made on tape?Don't know. Just asking.
Louis

 

[Who da Ville]

you're hearing what you imagine the sound is

Interesting observation. I think this must happen to me a lot...

 

[LouisF]

Or are you trying to create the sound you imagine? I have a certain idea of what "my sound" on my bass is at its best and I try and create that as much as possible. If I shift to another bow (which I do frequently for hand reasons) I know I am giving up that sound for something else for a while.

Maybe "my sound" would change if I taped myself more and listened and re-evaluated etc, but I still thinkI would want my bass, bow and strings to give me immediate feedback on achieving that.

Maybe I'm just confused.

 

[Mark_T]

Any mic is probably going to filter the sound a bit, but I also think that recording sound at a distance is valuable because there’s a lot of noise that we can hear (friction of the bow on the string or vibration of the hair) that doesn’t carry. So it’s sort of like having a biased observer filling in for the audience, or a player who’s hearing every scratch or buzz that the audience won’t.

I guess, in a perfect world, I’d be able to try things out with a couple of respected listeners/players in the room, but that’s not the world we’re living in now.

I’ll list the bows in question tomorrow, I think.

 

[Tom Lane]

I don't know, Tom: wouldn't you want to be able to trust the immediate feedback you got from your equipment (bass and bow) rather than trying to remember and recreate a sound you made on tape?Don't know. Just asking.
Louis

I know everyone is different, and as usual, it probably depends on your goals. I record myself pretty frequently - once a week or every other week, perhaps, usually after I think I've got something "down". But until recently, I just used my phone and would let the recording sit for a week before I listened to it. Then, I grab my good pair headphones and sit quietly and listen to the recording, assessing my intonation, groove, articulation, etc. When I first started, I found that because I usually pre-hear what I'm playing, that my intonation on a quick note wouldn't be as good as I heard it in my mind's ear, or the timing would be a bit off. Or some line that I convinced myself sounded good really didn't. Or those notes in that fast passage weren't really audible but because I knew what I intended, I heard them as I played them. But I wasn't focused on the tone of my bass so much; as long as it was recognizable, it was adequate.
So, in one sense, a recording is more objective than I am. In other ways, I recording can certainly "color" your tone.

 

[Tom Lane]

I recorded using a Røde USB microphone and an iPad. The mic was probably about 4 feet from the bow, next to the iPad. I made a couple of other recordings too. I might make one or two more today, and then think on it for a bit. My opinions have changed pretty wildly over the past two days or so. One thing that doesn’t help is that the hair on the bows is quite different, and I normally prefer good quality white hair to black.

I'm not familiar with the Rode mics so I can't comment on their suitability. I do know that the mic you use can alter the tone of your sound drastically and where you place the mic is important too. For that matter, the room can make a huge difference too. Are the windows open? For your purposes - trying to assess which bow sounds "better", better tone, more articulate, etc - can you bring a 2nd player with you? A teacher or friend? Take turns playing the different bows and walk around the room to get the tone based on proximity. Have your friend record your playing the different bows from different locations.
If not, then I think I'd try playing my "best" piece, after warming it up a bit, with each bow, and placing the mic at different locations. Four feet, eight feet, to the right, to the left, dead center in front.
The hair can make a big difference, in my experience, but I don't think any two shanks are exactly the same so the sound of your bow will change some after your next rehair. Usually for the better - I usually wait too long between rehairs.
It's kind of funny, because the last time I went bow shopping, I A-->B'ed 20 or 30 bows, just like at the optometrist's. Play A, play B; B sounds better. Play A', play B; A sounds better. Love my bow!

 

[Don Kasper]

I would suggest that the OP choose the bow that FEELS/PLAYS the best. The subtle (perceived) differences in sound are secondary.
IMO, of course, as always.
Thanks.

 

[BarfanyShart]

The three bows do sound very similar in the recording, to the point where I had to listen a few times to determine what I liked the best (and it seems nobody agrees with me). I think even more than going with your ear, you should go with what feels best in your hand and - I'm not kidding here - the one you think looks the coolest. I'm guessing that all of these bows are objectively significant upgrades (otherwise, why would you be trying them out?), so the difference is really going to be in which bow sparks joy within you when you hold it in your hand, which thus encourages you to practice more.

 

[Ryan in PDX]

Any mic is probably going to filter the sound a bit, but I also think that recording sound at a distance is valuable because there’s a lot of noise that we can hear (friction of the bow on the string or vibration of the hair) that doesn’t carry. So it’s sort of like having a biased observer filling in for the audience, or a player who’s hearing every scratch or buzz that the audience won’t.

I guess, in a perfect world, I’d be able to try things out with a couple of respected listeners/players in the room, but that’s not the world we’re living in now.

I’ll list the bows in question tomorrow, I think.

I agree with @Tom Lane - choose a piece you can play exactly the same way all day long. And yes, the mic and room both affect the sound. Try a few mic positions/distances, and different rooms or the back yard - studios may give you a close mic, and orchestra audiences will be dozens of feet away. Youtube sometimes applies its own processing as well, and I find the visual aspect distracting for critical listening, personally.

If you want to record some (or a lot!) more and send me the audio, I would be happy to split up and rename the trials to give you slightly more objective testing conditions. I could send you the "answer key" after you (or the TB community) have decided on your favorite take.

 

[Mark_T]

I’m going to jump the gun here, but I think I’ve made up my mind, so it probably can’t hurt to reveal the contenders.

Bow #1 is a pernambuco bow by Zladislow Prochownik. I have owned it since about 2007.
Bow #2 is an Arcus S4 carbon fiber bow
Bow #3 is an Arcus S5 carbon fiber bow

What I hear is that the Prochownik is a touch harsher, but it’s also louder and maybe a tiny bit woodier. The two Arcus bows, to my ear, are both excellent (and a blast to play!). At their best, I think they have a smooth and beautiful sound, which is darker than the Prochownik. Occasionally, I can hear a bit of open ringiness to them that’s not ideal, but it’s rare and probably could be controlled with technique and familiarity.

The verdict is that I’m planning to return the Arcus bows - not because they aren’t good, because I actually really like playing them - but rather because they’re not really a step up from what I have.

If people are interested in the Arcus bows, I’d suggest trying one. I think they could really help bring out some beautiful sounds from a beginner or middling bass. Even on a great bass (which I happen to think mine is) they make a great sound and if I didn’t already own the Prochownik I’d definitely be keeping one.

Between the S4 and S5, I think the S5 sounds better by a smidge. Interestingly, I find the frog on the S4 more comfortable where my thumb meets the corner of the frog and the stick. The S5 frog is prettier snakewood but it’s carved a touch sharp there. If I were considering the Arcus bows as my only or primary bow, I think the extra few hundred dollars for the S5 might be worth it, but as a second bow, I’d stick with the S4.

 

[Tom Lane]

I’m going to jump the gun here, but I think I’ve made up my mind, so it probably can’t hurt to reveal the contenders.

Bow #1 is a pernambuco bow by Zladislow Prochownik. I have owned it since about 2007.
Bow #2 is an Arcus S4 carbon fiber bow
Bow #3 is an Arcus S5 carbon fiber bow

What I hear is that the Prochownik is a touch harsher, but it’s also louder and maybe a tiny bit woodier. The two Arcus bows, to my ear, are both excellent (and a blast to play!). At their best, I think they have a smooth and beautiful sound, which is darker than the Prochownik. Occasionally, I can hear a bit of open ringiness to them that’s not ideal, but it’s rare and probably could be controlled with technique and familiarity.

The verdict is that I’m planning to return the Arcus bows - not because they aren’t good, because I actually really like playing them - but rather because they’re not really a step up from what I have.

If people are interested in the Arcus bows, I’d suggest trying one. I think they could really help bring out some beautiful sounds from a beginner or middling bass. Even on a great bass (which I happen to think mine is) they make a great sound and if I didn’t already own the Prochownik I’d definitely be keeping one.

Between the S4 and S5, I think the S5 sounds better by a smidge. Interestingly, I find the frog on the S4 more comfortable where my thumb meets the corner of the frog and the stick. The S5 frog is prettier snakewood but it’s carved a touch sharp there. If I were considering the Arcus bows as my only or primary bow, I think the extra few hundred dollars for the S5 might be worth it, but as a second bow, I’d stick with the S4.

Sounds like sound reasoning, to my ear, puns intended. If it's too close to call, it doesn't seem worth the trouble. One final thought regarding "hearing" yourself: find a corner and play facing it. The sound will be slightly delayed and it will be more like what your audience hears. I never remember how loud my bass is until I play the corner.