An old tip once given to me was that you have to groove with your whole body and not just with your fingers. It simply sounds and feels different if your whole body is in the groove.
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Trying to learn to groove
- Thread starter Forrest Thump
- Start date
Let's start...
Bass and the drums programmed by
Incognito- new to me!
"Cheers
Richard Bull"
Let's get back to our SIMPLE groove, instead of that "overly-complicated and multinotes-ated" bass-lines.
Do you feel any "groove" in the following song?
Do you feel any "groove" in the following super simple song?
We have an excellent bass player and a very knowledgeable musician "mambo4" here at TB; therefore, I found a simple but "groovy" song, kind of(?), named after him.
"Mambo No. 5."
Do you feel any groove?
Let's start...
Bass and the drums programmed by
Incognito- new to me!
"Cheers
Richard Bull"
Let's get back to our SIMPLE groove, instead of that "overly-complicated and multinotes-ated" bass-lines.
Do you feel any "groove" in the following song?
Do you feel any "groove" in the following super simple song?
We have an excellent bass player and a very knowledgeable musician "mambo4" here at TB; therefore, I found a simple but "groovy" song, kind of(?), named after him.
"Mambo No. 5."
Do you feel any groove?
Incognito was actually one of the projects I was thinking of when I mentioned programmed and time-corrected recordings. "Colibri" is a perfect example. I'm also thinking of albums such as "Plantation Lullabies" (Me'shell), "Urban Hang Suite" (Maxwell), "Voodoo" (D'Angelo) and "Who Is Jill Scott" (Jill Scott) - all albums with heavy grooves and plenty of time correction on them (and programming on at least three of those four).
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Incognito is a great band! Check out the song 'I'll get by', it has one of those typical grooves that you need to feel to play and make it sound right. Also 'Fred Wesley' has some cool tunes with great grooves, though OP was looking more for R&B and not jazz I believe.
Whoa.... Yeah.. The groove. Rather like describing the sun to a blind person....... Look, do you tap your foot to the beat of a song? That's your built in metronome. Use it. Be aware of it and have fun. Don't obsess over it because that is self defeating. Have fun and the groove will find you...... And for a lesson in the perfect groove. Look up Tommy Shannon.
Technically speaking i think its necessary to achieve perfect timing first, work on your internal "clock" until you get it.
Then learn dynamics & playing behind or ahead the beat to add feel.
Then learn dynamics & playing behind or ahead the beat to add feel.
Timing and endurance are best friends. You can have the perfect timing, but if you can't keep it up then you are still not tight or at least not consistantly.
Thats the fight on the bass I usually have, keeping up fast grooves song after song. After a couple of fast lines/songs without any rest in them my timing starts to buckle and the right hand cramp starts to kick in.
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Timing - if you are not with the rest of the guys/gals you are going to get fish eyes from the group. The guitar and vocalists will be the first to notice this. If you are on the back row with the drummer, you can tell something is wrong by the way they hunch their shoulders when you get around to playing your root. You being late or early messes up their groove.
My point, you listen to the entire band.
My point, you listen to the entire band.
If you are having trouble feeling a groove in a song try singing the bass line along with the recording. You can transpose up an octave if you have too. Don't wory so much about the pitch if that is an issue, but sing the timing and the dynamics. Use what ever sounds work.
Adam is too smart, too deep for me.
Anyway, I like Nils Landgren - one of the most versatile "Lite-Music" Musician.
Let's start with a very simple but groovy bass-line in the following song.
Try to get that sense of dynamic articulation.
Also, take a note where and how "much" the bass player inserts the bass fills.
N.B. Groove is not(!) a flashy "guitarized" flood of many notes!
I've said it.
Let's compare the groove to the original.
Another one from the same cool album.
Do you feel any groove before(!) the bass starts?
Like groove, people seem to have different opinions on a concise definition.
Having suffered through many threads and explanations on this, this is my best explanation:
ahead /behind the beat are loosely interpreted musical feels,
and not some specific, technical, measurable attribute.
ahead of the beat = feels excited, feels rushed (but is not actually rushing)
behind the beat = feels relaxed, feels dragged (but is not actually dragging)
how do you feel rushed /dragged without actually doing so?
you rush/drag only certain selected notes of the phrase, depending on the tune.
the other notes stay tight, so nothing actually becomes incorrect against the tempo of other voices.
Like groove, It's likely best acquired by listening, experience and command of the fundamentals.
Its not that vague actually.
Its in fact rushing and dragging, but in a small amount and played consistently. So at the end its not percieved as a mistake, just a different placing of the note..
It's a lot more than just that, it's also consistency in note duration and accents as mentioned above - not that all notes are equal duration, but for it to groove, there have to be consistent patterns. I never really thought about it much until I started recording and listening critically to my own playing - I like a lot of what I'm doing, but note length muting consistency can be issues, and they really starkly break the groove, even if note choice and note start timing are dead on. Nothing like recording yourself for a good humbling experience.
- Oct 7, 2000
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- Disclosures
- Endorsing artist: Musicman basses
Thinking out loud here...
I believe that there are some people who have no groove, and they never will. I've seen and played with them.
I believe there are some people who are born with excellent groove, and nothing you can do will take it away from them.
I believe most people have some sense of rhythm and groove, and it can be developed.
I'm in the third category. With all due humility, I'm confident about my ability to play in the pocket and groove, and I've been complimented on that. That wasn't always the case though, and here's are some things that I think have helped me.
A little over a decade ago I started playing with a metronome. I was astounded to learn it actually started "tuning" my inner clock. I found all the exercises I could and played around with them regularly. Played to stupidly slow tempos as well as ridiculously fast ones. Played ridiculously fast to ridiculously slow tempos too. Played on top of, before, and after the beat. My timing got better. It started to feel like I was on automatic pilot when jamming with people after I began that practice. My fingers were doing what they were supposed to, when they were supposed to, and I was grooving.
Wow, realizing I have more thoughts on this than I thought
, and I'm trying to organize those thoughts in order of importance. Don't think that's going to happen, so... another thing I think is crucial for me is knowing what I'm doing. Trying to remember parts or be creative beyond my knowledge and/or capabilities is a sure fire way to kill the groove. When I know the material inside out it leaves me open to listen closely and lock in. I never listen for kick drums or anything specific like that (maybe it comes intuitively to me), I just do my best to hear and feel what's happening. I do make a conscious effort though to put emotion into what I'm doing. I think of my bass as a means of expression, and use it like that. I think there's a big difference between playing notes, and expressing yourself. Being conscious of that can make all the difference in the world.
I'll leave it with this last thing for now as I have to get moving with my day. I learn things SLOWLY, even if I'm capable of playing them regular tempo, and practice them until muscle memory takes over. Then I listen as closely as possible (if it's a cover) to what the original bassist did, and do my best to emulate that. This week I'm having the honor and joy of learning several Motown tunes that we're going to be playing this weekend. I'm loving them all, but particularly liking Ain't No Mountain, and Heard it Through the Grapevine. I HIGHLY recommend learning Ain't No Mountain, and working at playing it impeccably, note for note. I took the isolated bass version, slowed it down, and played the verses over and over until the parts just played by themselves. After learning most of it N4N I realized I needed to know exactly what was going on and figured it out in roots only. Once I did that, it opened me up to improvising my own stuff - and yeah, it's one of the best groove exercises I've had in a while. I am so unbelievably psyched to be playing these tunes this weekend. Something I've always wanted to do.
Enough out of me. Good luck!
OOPS... One last important one! I have a bunch of beat boxes around. An excellent exercise for me has been taking basslines from various songs, and then playing them along to completely different beats. Doing it on the fly is especially challenging. To go from a funk to a blues to jazz grooving on G'nR can be really fun and interesting.
I believe that there are some people who have no groove, and they never will. I've seen and played with them.
I believe there are some people who are born with excellent groove, and nothing you can do will take it away from them.
I believe most people have some sense of rhythm and groove, and it can be developed.
I'm in the third category. With all due humility, I'm confident about my ability to play in the pocket and groove, and I've been complimented on that. That wasn't always the case though, and here's are some things that I think have helped me.
A little over a decade ago I started playing with a metronome. I was astounded to learn it actually started "tuning" my inner clock. I found all the exercises I could and played around with them regularly. Played to stupidly slow tempos as well as ridiculously fast ones. Played ridiculously fast to ridiculously slow tempos too. Played on top of, before, and after the beat. My timing got better. It started to feel like I was on automatic pilot when jamming with people after I began that practice. My fingers were doing what they were supposed to, when they were supposed to, and I was grooving.
Wow, realizing I have more thoughts on this than I thought
, and I'm trying to organize those thoughts in order of importance. Don't think that's going to happen, so... another thing I think is crucial for me is knowing what I'm doing. Trying to remember parts or be creative beyond my knowledge and/or capabilities is a sure fire way to kill the groove. When I know the material inside out it leaves me open to listen closely and lock in. I never listen for kick drums or anything specific like that (maybe it comes intuitively to me), I just do my best to hear and feel what's happening. I do make a conscious effort though to put emotion into what I'm doing. I think of my bass as a means of expression, and use it like that. I think there's a big difference between playing notes, and expressing yourself. Being conscious of that can make all the difference in the world.I'll leave it with this last thing for now as I have to get moving with my day. I learn things SLOWLY, even if I'm capable of playing them regular tempo, and practice them until muscle memory takes over. Then I listen as closely as possible (if it's a cover) to what the original bassist did, and do my best to emulate that. This week I'm having the honor and joy of learning several Motown tunes that we're going to be playing this weekend. I'm loving them all, but particularly liking Ain't No Mountain, and Heard it Through the Grapevine. I HIGHLY recommend learning Ain't No Mountain, and working at playing it impeccably, note for note. I took the isolated bass version, slowed it down, and played the verses over and over until the parts just played by themselves. After learning most of it N4N I realized I needed to know exactly what was going on and figured it out in roots only. Once I did that, it opened me up to improvising my own stuff - and yeah, it's one of the best groove exercises I've had in a while. I am so unbelievably psyched to be playing these tunes this weekend. Something I've always wanted to do.
Enough out of me. Good luck!
OOPS... One last important one! I have a bunch of beat boxes around. An excellent exercise for me has been taking basslines from various songs, and then playing them along to completely different beats. Doing it on the fly is especially challenging. To go from a funk to a blues to jazz grooving on G'nR can be really fun and interesting
.
If I understand you correctly, I have to disagree somewhat.
I think It is not a small, universal , consistent displacement of all notes in a phrase.
Rather only the displacement of certain notes, to generate an illusion of rushing or dragging.
Many examples have been posted on TB of midi sequences and DAW manipulations
attempting to illustrate that small, universal, consitent displacement of notes ahead /behind the beat
and none of them sounded to me what other musicians seem to actually mean by the terms.
then I watched John Paul Jones demonstrate the concept as he and his peers understood it:
and I stopped worrying about a concise definition.
behind the beat = feels kinda dragged
ahead of the beat = feels kinda rushed
no further analysis needed IMHO
It's ok to not worry about a concise definition.
The thing is... in order to explain another person "what is something" you got to describe a concise idea like "its placing your notes, etc.."
"Feels kinda dragged" don't help too much.
