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Tubes Or Solid State, A Perspective
- Thread starter ubersku
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Tubes for me
I use tube amps almost exclusively for bass and also regular guitar. Some amps and some tubes, i.e. old stock vintage tubes, can last for decades without needing maintenance. For the most part, I restore and maintain my own amps. I have not had one problem other on any of the amps after restoring them upon purchase: this includes vintage Ampegs, Fenders, Hiwatts, Sound Citys, Selmers and Marshalls.
A lot of newer amps, both tube and SS, are not built for long term reliability. Too many of them have thin PCB boards with densly packed thin copper traces. Sometimes, manufacturers solder the tube sockets and potentiometers direct to the PCB....this is a no no <wags finger>.
If I gigged or toured all the time, then I might be one to join the SS bandwagon. As things are right now, the weight of large tubes doesn't bother me.
I use tube amps almost exclusively for bass and also regular guitar. Some amps and some tubes, i.e. old stock vintage tubes, can last for decades without needing maintenance. For the most part, I restore and maintain my own amps. I have not had one problem other on any of the amps after restoring them upon purchase: this includes vintage Ampegs, Fenders, Hiwatts, Sound Citys, Selmers and Marshalls.
A lot of newer amps, both tube and SS, are not built for long term reliability. Too many of them have thin PCB boards with densly packed thin copper traces. Sometimes, manufacturers solder the tube sockets and potentiometers direct to the PCB....this is a no no <wags finger>.
If I gigged or toured all the time, then I might be one to join the SS bandwagon. As things are right now, the weight of large tubes doesn't bother me.
Peavey has made a lot of reliable products over the years, but the VB-2 amp is not one of them. Lots of people have had problems with that amp. I'm sorry to hear about your heel, back, and shoulder problems. It speaks well for big iron tube tone that you still have the courage to use an SVT-VR despite some physical ailments.ubersku said:
I love tube amps but I dont own one. I would if I could afford it. Im not swayed ill use whatever amp I can get. yes tube amps are heavy and they require extra time to cool before you move them but they sound amazing. solid state amps seem better for me only because i play alot of gigs with many bands on the bill. So its all about getting your stuff off the stage as quick as possible for the other band to set up.
It doesn't have to be either/or. You could get a tube preamp, Demeter VTBP-201s for instance, and a solid state power amp. You will get a lot of tube tone from the tube preamp, without too much weight, and then use a clean lighter-than-tube power amp. The Demeter works great with the IP310 powered cab, for instance...
FWIW,
Jim
FWIW,
Jim
I usually stay out of these discussions as well, but Jim C's comment a few posts back struck me, yeah, Mesa walkabout. To my ears, it makes no difference what specific topology an amp has, only that it sounds good. And that walkabout is the ONE hybrid amp that to me, and many others, does a fine job sounding "tubey". But then, that would be open to debate depending on YOUR ears. If I use the Ampeg B15R or V4BH as a base line of what a tube amp sounds like, then the hybrid Walkabout sounds more tubey than my all-tube mesa Buster does. And that's not a fair comparison either, since they both sound awesome, but different. My advice, forget about what *kind* of amp it is, and judge with your ears, not your eyes.
To me, that seems like a reasonable option. However, the tube afficionados would say, with justification, that a good deal of the tone comes from the power section. This is recognised in my current favourite amp, the RH450, which attempts to emulate both preamp and power tubes in its "Tubetone" circuit. To me, it sounds like it does a pretty good job, but I would not argue with anyone who preferred their all-tube amp.
What I really don't get is the venom these threads inspire. I play what works for me, based on a combination of tone goals and portability, you do what works for you given your goals. I can see the sense in some of seamonkey's arguments, for example, but what does not follow from them is a "blanket ban" on tubes. Who gives a flying f#%k if there is a clipping diode in an Ampeg? If you like what it does in combination with a given tube pathway, then all power to you. The same clearly goes for anyone who willfully ignores the enormous variety amongst solid state and hybrid amps, and dismisses them all with a wave of the hand. Or all class-D amps, or all anything.
Greenboy, you must have an apposite picture in your collection to top this rant off, right?
I was about to say something, but then Growlerbox said it better than I could. So I'll just add a little.
Also, I understand something like all the fEarful cab owners recommending them in lots of threads. They've got gear they love and are excited about it and and think others should try it. That's cool, and I applaud Greenboy for his design, and those who have put in the time to build them.
What I don't understand, are those who feel compelled to crusade AGAINST gear they happen to dislike, across dozens of threads. It's weird and a little creepy.
Also, I understand something like all the fEarful cab owners recommending them in lots of threads. They've got gear they love and are excited about it and and think others should try it. That's cool, and I applaud Greenboy for his design, and those who have put in the time to build them.
What I don't understand, are those who feel compelled to crusade AGAINST gear they happen to dislike, across dozens of threads. It's weird and a little creepy.
Consumers should should know if what they buy is labeled as "all tube" or 100% peanut free, is or isn't. Ampeg in this case has positioned that an SVT is special being "all tubes". You'd be pissed if you bought 24k gold and it turned out to be 14k. But it looks good, why care?
Ampeg in fact didn't start that way originally. You can find old advertisements. It's just what they had to do at the time to get that much power out. "SVT" was not about all tube. SS amps with that much power didn't come out until a few years after.
Only when "All Tube" became some marketing ploy did Ampeg jump on that marketing hype wagon.
If people like the sound of clipping diodes they can get that many ways. Different, more expensive, cheaper. Pedals, modeling, ... many ways.
Someone could just take a scope to the diodes and show they are or are not not coloring the signal. To me, and modeling similar amps in ltspice - Everything indicates they are. It's a terrible design for any amp protection circuit.
I am clearly no expert; in fact, I've never owned a tube amp, although I have to confess I'm curious. However, I'm pretty sure of two things -- first, that there's more in a "100% tube amp" than just tubes, and that some players like the tone of their tube amps even before they start to distort. I know that there is some harmonic distortion and compression even in the "clean" range, but that is the point, no?
There are lots of ways to do almost anything, so I'm not really sure where you're going with the last point. However, I will repeat, while I find certain of your arguments moderately compelling, they all seem to culminate in the same non sequitur -- tubes bad, solid state good. It is this that compels me (as it has some others) to wonder what is at stake here for you. It seems like a lot of energy to expend in a rather pointless crusade.
There are lots of ways to do almost anything, so I'm not really sure where you're going with the last point. However, I will repeat, while I find certain of your arguments moderately compelling, they all seem to culminate in the same non sequitur -- tubes bad, solid state good. It is this that compels me (as it has some others) to wonder what is at stake here for you. It seems like a lot of energy to expend in a rather pointless crusade.
Brother - Believe me - I understand your dilema. Try mentioning Acoustic USA sometime!! You want fireworks??
But seriously, you know me. I LOVE me some tube goodness, but I also love the hybrid thing as well...and, on occasion, some SS!!
Thanks for that. I'll be back at in a 8 weeks or so. But I have such a great buch of guys I play with, they will even set up my heavy gear for me during the recovery period. Courage? Yeah, ok, I'll take that. Thanks. My level of fun is off the charts when I play and I'll do what it takes to keep that level of fun - my fun - it what works for me.
@ Spaz - who do I bug about getting signed up for the Oregon Soggy Bassist Club?
right...that's why it's been in continuous production for 42 years, much longer than any other amp on the market. so whether or not you're right is completely immaterial...much to your dismay, the svt continues to be one of the most well-loved amps on the planet. but on the subject of the diodes, i'll take the word of guys like johnk and b-string and andy over your word any day of the week. at least they've touched an svt.
dammit...i keep getting sucked into the seamonkey vortex. oh well, at least people get that you have this weird agenda now.
I always preferred the tone, and sound of tube amps.
B15's, B25's V4B, SVT's, Sunn 200s, Messa D180, Orange AD200, these were my kind of amps.
But I must say, the new Genz Benz Streamliner is the first none total tube amp that is changing my mind.
Plus at 6 1/2 lbs, my back likes it too.
Seamonkey, dude, did your mom used to beat you with vacuum tubes? Did your father grind them up and slip them into your Pablum?
Did you ever take 5 minutes to think about the immense irony implicit in your relentless arguing for various complicated SS solutions designed to imitate the naturally occurring characteristics of tubes in instrument amplifiers?
Sometimes weight and size are simply unimportant parameters when choosing gear. Honestly, you are a one man crusade against every single post and poster that has a single good thing to say about using tubes in any situation. You congest every single thread with your irrelevancies and frankly it's just annoying and I'm sure counterproductive. Your zeal and inflexibility has probably caused more people to ignore your posts by default instead of considering your arguments. Your call, but man, give us a break once in a while! Will you only be happy when every single tube operated device is destroyed and we all bow to the great God of Transistors and his Angels of Tube Emulation?
Did you ever take 5 minutes to think about the immense irony implicit in your relentless arguing for various complicated SS solutions designed to imitate the naturally occurring characteristics of tubes in instrument amplifiers?
Sometimes weight and size are simply unimportant parameters when choosing gear. Honestly, you are a one man crusade against every single post and poster that has a single good thing to say about using tubes in any situation. You congest every single thread with your irrelevancies and frankly it's just annoying and I'm sure counterproductive. Your zeal and inflexibility has probably caused more people to ignore your posts by default instead of considering your arguments. Your call, but man, give us a break once in a while! Will you only be happy when every single tube operated device is destroyed and we all bow to the great God of Transistors and his Angels of Tube Emulation?
With all due respect, you seem to anger in these types of threads too, Jimmy - and are also guilty of spreading a little misinformation yourself... Tube amps DO require *a little* more upkeep than SS amps - they just do... As I've said before, over the span of 10 years of moderate to hard use, a typical tube amp will need to be retubed atleast once, if not twice - whereas, most quality SS amps will easily do 10 years of the same use without needing anything done to them... To say otherwise is not being honest, IMO...
Also, it's a safe bet that you gig at lower volumes than most here - so, not only do you put less wear on a set of tubes - or an amp, for that matter - you don't need as much wattage as many here do... So, when you make statements like: I like to have headroom, so I bring atleast 25 watts" - most people might not realize your particular situation...
Hey, I really like tube amps, too - but let's be totally honest here...
- georgestrings
To some people, tone is more important than other factors. To some people it's not. And to some other people, they wouldn't know the difference because they're so inexperienced.
Yours and others jab and stabs won't change me. This seems to happen a lot on this board, not just to me, but when someone disagrees with another they attack the person and not the argument. And it's common to bring in responses to other threads and mesh them together.
What would change my mind is some hard evidence.
Fact: Semiconductor diodes are in the signal path in an SVT.
UncleFluffy says measure it.
I agree, measure it, prove that they don't conduct under normal use.
Who owns this burdon? I don't own such an amp, and I'm sure my measurements would not be trusted due to my first paragraph.
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