Tubes Or Solid State, A Perspective

[JimmyM]

I don't know - what were they, and what circumstances led to them requiring service???

If we're going by that standard, maybe you can explain to me why I've never had an SS amp serviced, yet every tube amp I've ever owned has needed atleast a little attention, eventually???

After all, I've been playing atleast as long as you, probably play as many gigs per year as you - and most definitely play way louder than you do...

I know it might not seem it at the moment, but I really like and respect you, Jimmy - but don't pee down my back, and tell it's raining, OK???

ok, so one was a 3 pro that the mosfets kept going out of bias. the other was an sm-500 that was overheating and blowing out the tube. my tech hardiwired the fan to always on and that problem went away. used that amp pretty heavily for 5 years...had a tube in it. after getting it fixed, i never touched the tube again.

 

[John D]

With all due respect, you seem to anger in these types of threads too, Jimmy - and are also guilty of spreading a little misinformation yourself... Tube amps DO require *a little* more upkeep than SS amps - they just do... As I've said before, over the span of 10 years of moderate to hard use, a typical tube amp will need to be retubed atleast once, if not twice - whereas, most quality SS amps will easily do 10 years of the same use without needing anything done to them... To say otherwise is not being honest, IMO...

Also, it's a safe bet that you gig at lower volumes than most here - so, not only do you put less wear on a set of tubes - or an amp, for that matter - you don't need as much wattage as many here do... So, when you make statements like: I like to have headroom, so I bring atleast 25 watts" - most people might not realize your particular situation...

Hey, I really like tube amps, too - but let's be totally honest here...


- georgestrings

@One Drop: +10,000
@georgestrings: I'm glad you ended your statements (in bold below) with IMO, because I don't think you can find data anywhere that will back you up. If I'm wrong, show'em.

"With all due respect, you seem to anger in these types of threads too, Jimmy - and are also guilty of spreading a little misinformation yourself... Tube amps DO require *a little* more upkeep than SS amps - they just do... As I've said before, over the span of 10 years of moderate to hard use, a typical tube amp will need to be retubed atleast once, if not twice - whereas, most quality SS amps will easily do 10 years of the same use without needing anything done to them... To say otherwise is not being honest, IMO..."

I base my opinion on twenty-five years experience using both SS and tube amps, and ten years as an amp tech, where almost all of the amps brought to me for serviced were SS. YMMV

My advice to anyone would be to buy the amp that is both pleasing to your ears and your wallet, and don't listen to false claims of high cost tube amp maintenance.

 

[Chef]

Jimmy; OldBassPlayer:
quit it, both of you. I'm gonna look back and see where this started, but further engagment between you two won't be tolerated.

 

[NecroticImbecil]

I like some amps, and don't like some others. Some have tubes, some don't.

No point in hating inanimate objects. I used to get upset about it myself, then I discovered the Ignore feature. This thread reads better when I'm logged in and it's in effect. This discussion gets turned into an argument, usually with some prodding from You-Know-Who, and gets uglier as it goes on. It's been going on for years. Not everyone who fought with He Who Shall Not Be Named over this is still here.

 

[Deluge Of Sound]

 

[JimmyM]

aw, you edited my judge judy joke! that was a good one...george's quote was actually the name of her book. oh well, i guess sometimes comedy must be sacrificed to keep the peace.

 

[seamonkey]

I also find this obsession with a couple diodes in the SVT to be more than just a little bizarre.

I mean, honestly, why give a crap?

Historical mainly. They are there in the signal path. Clamping diodes go across coils. Is there some reason these are here, and if Ampeg stopped making SVT, or some boutique wanted to clone them, should the include these diodes, or go with traditional designs from tube books?

What's is it going to hurt?

If you have a non-SVT them maybe a little mod to add a switch and a couple of diodes would give you some additional sound options?

It's great that someone has volunteered to measure them.

 

[seamonkey]

@One Drop: +10,000
@georgestrings: I'm glad you ended your statements (in bold below) with IMO, because I don't think you can find data anywhere that will back you up. If I'm wrong, show'em.

Manufacturer manuals like that from Ampeg or from all the web sites in post don't count?

I've seen pre 1990's Mil-Specs online someplace. They have the expected service life of Mil-Spec rated tubes.

There is also a bunch of out of copyright tube books linked someplace. I'll see if I can find them. A couple actually had charts on tube wear and reliability.

 

[John D]

Manufacturer manuals like that from Ampeg or from all the web sites in post don't count?

I've seen pre 1990's Mil-Specs online someplace. They have the expected service life of Mil-Spec rated tubes.

There is also a bunch of out of copyright tube books linked someplace. I'll see if I can find them. A couple actually had charts on tube wear and reliability.

Ampeg and tube manfacturers are in the business of selling tubes. Do you actually think they would advise you to not replace tubes? Get real.

I serviced tube radios and amplifiers in the USAF for three years. You don't even want to go there.

 

[Korladis]

+1. Even if the signal path includes solid state components, it's not a solid state amp, and it wouldn't sound half as good if it was. I'm not even a fan of the SVT, Ampeg's other amps, sure, but still, a couple diodes, no matter what their purpose, in one of the most popular amps of all time hardly proves that we should give up tubes.

Seriously. I don't see why I should particularly care about a couple diodes in an amp I don't use.

My amp isn't all tube, either, technically. At least, not when I'm using the graphic EQ. Do I care? No, it sounds great, and does what I want it to do, and one of the reasons it gets the sound I want is because it's a tube amp.

 

[Korladis]

Historical mainly. They are there in the signal path. Clamping diodes go across coils. Is there some reason these are here, and if Ampeg stopped making SVT, or some boutique wanted to clone them, should the include these diodes, or go with traditional designs from tube books?

What's is it going to hurt?

If you have a non-SVT them maybe a little mod to add a switch and a couple of diodes would give you some additional sound options?

It's great that someone has volunteered to measure them.

I just don't see why they're such a big deal to you. That's the difference. You seem to care quite a bit about a couple components of an amp you don't use. This really baffles me. Because I really don't see why a couple diodes in an amp I don't use should be something to get all up in arms about.

If I had an SVT, modding it to take those in and out of the signal path, if they are indeed in it, might be interesting. I don't have an SVT, so the point is moot. As for adding them to my amp, well, I've got other mods I'd like to have done before I'd be willing to use my amp as a guinea pig for a talkbass debate.

 

[seamonkey]

I'm not the one up in arms. Other are up in arms that I mention it.

You can add the diodes in a simple cable in your effects loop.

I use this Amp. It is one of the amps I model with.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm not the one up in arms. Other are up in arms that I mention it.

You can add the diodes in a simple cable in your effects loop.

I use this Amp. It is one of the amps I model with.

nobody's up in arms that you said it. we're up in arms that you act like it's the only thing that matters when you've never even touched an svt before, and your only experience with tube amps is building some little school project amp. all your knowledge about tube amps comes entirely from books, yet you present yourself as some sort of an expert on them.

 

[MikeyThrottler]

A lot of things cross my mind at a gig. Diodes usually aren't one of them.

 

[coreyfyfe]

Fact: Semiconductor diodes are in the signal path in an SVT.

UncleFluffy says measure it.

I agree, measure it, prove that they don't conduct under normal use.

The only source I can actually find for this - which will hopefully stop you from repeatedly posting on this same subject with nothing to say other than that the diodes exist - says that the power amp only requires 0.3V for full power, clamping diodes kick in at 0.7V.

Add that to what I posted before, where a group of amp experts here on TB have all said the point of these diodes was protection, not distortion, and I hope we can lay the subject to rest. It's unimportant, and your fixation on this issue is pointless.

 

[seamonkey]

agedhorse pointed out different facts.
Measurements will tell the truth.

 

[georgestrings]

@One Drop: +10,000
@georgestrings: I'm glad you ended your statements (in bold below) with IMO, because I don't think you can find data anywhere that will back you up. If I'm wrong, show'em.

"With all due respect, you seem to anger in these types of threads too, Jimmy - and are also guilty of spreading a little misinformation yourself... Tube amps DO require *a little* more upkeep than SS amps - they just do... As I've said before, over the span of 10 years of moderate to hard use, a typical tube amp will need to be retubed atleast once, if not twice - whereas, most quality SS amps will easily do 10 years of the same use without needing anything done to them... To say otherwise is not being honest, IMO..."

I base my opinion on twenty-five years experience using both SS and tube amps, and ten years as an amp tech, where almost all of the amps brought to me for serviced were SS. YMMV

My advice to anyone would be to buy the amp that is both pleasing to your ears and your wallet, and don't listen to false claims of high cost tube amp maintenance.

While, I'm not an "amp tech", I do have a pretty extensive background in electricity and electronics - besides spending my entire adult life and teens in and around bands(I'm 48)... I've probably owned a dozen tube amps, and literally gigged on hundreds of different ones over the years... I realize that my experiences are anecdotal, however - but they are what they are...

For a more recent example - another area bassist friend of mine has an SVT, and has gigged it the same as I've gigged my amps for the last 3 years: probably a little over 200 gigs during that time period... FWIW, we both play in loud 2 guitar bands, and have used each other's rigs during shows our bands have played together - so, the demands placed on our rigs are very similar... His SVT - nearly new at the beginning of those 3 years - has been badly needing replacement tubes for a couple of months, and has become unreliable as a result... My amps have needed nothing during those 3 years, and still don't need anything...

I'm not doubting the background you've laid out aboput yourself, but I also don't think there's a tube amp manufacturer on the planet that would say my friend's amp shouldn't need tube replacement after the last 3 years of use it's seen...

Are you really trying to tell me that most tube amps - if used as I've described - won't need a re-tube over the span of 5 years??? or ten, for that matter??

I personally have never had an amp of any kind fail that were mine - tube, SS, or hybrid - but I've seen quite a few failures over the years of all kinds... Also, both my guitarists use Triple Recs - so, I'm still around tube amps all the time... I have no bias against them - heck, I really like tube amps - and will probably buy another this year for bass - and have had the same Dean Markley tube guitar amp for years... I totally agree that one should play what they like best, and not let maintenence costs become a deciding factor - since there isn't a huge difference in that regard - but IME, there IS a difference, nonetheless...

Anyways, I think I've beaten this dead horse long enough...


- georgestrings

 

[John D]

FWIW, we both play in loud 2 guitar bands, and have used each other's rigs during shows our bands have played together - so, the demands placed on our rigs are very similar... georgestrings

You have pretty much made my point for me. Like yours, most of the evidence that has been given is purely anecdotal, including mine. That's why I said that I am glad you ended your previous statements with "IMO", and invited you to offer up your data.

My anecdotal evidence tells me that tube amps are no more prone to failure than solid state amps are, when operated within their design intent. If your friend is constantly pushing his amp, and running it well past its rated output, which he probably is if he is overdriving it, then, he may very well need new tubes. Try running your solid-state amp into an overdrive condition continuously and see what happens. I think you may change your opinion. The difference is that most people hate the sound of a clipped solid-state amp, so they use other less demanding methods for getting distortion out of them, while most people find the sound of an overdriven tube amp pleasing.

I agree that this horse has been beaten to death. At least we can agree that we should each play what we like best without worrying about potential maintenance costs.

FWIW, I'm sixty-three and haven't played in a band for some time. When I did play, I played mostly top-forty, country, and R&B. The last thing I wanted was distortion (clipping) coming from any of my amps. I never intentionally ran them past their rated power. If I were buying a new amp today, it would most likely be SS, due to the initial cost of a decent tube amp.

Cheers,
JD

 

[AwkwardLoudness]

Blanket statements about reliability are not useful because....

Some tube amps are very reliable. Some SS amps are very reliable.

Some tube amps are NOT reliable. Some SS amps are NOT reliable.

Some hybrid amps are NOT reliable, and some are reliable.

Tube amps do require some occasional maintenance. If the tubes are good, then maintenance may only be required once every decade or two. Use good vintage tubes and treat the amp right....let the tubes cool before moving it.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

...Tube amps do require some occasional maintenance. If the tubes are good, then maintenance may only be required once every decade or two. Use good vintage tubes and treat the amp right....let the tubes cool before moving it.

I grew up with tubes. I loved high-end tube hi-fi in the days when SS equipment couldn't really compete in terms of sound quality. I remember the dark days when the majority of tube factories started to shut down and availability of good tubes started to dwindle, as well as the happy days when supplies started to bounce back. I have a hobby business repairing and modding tube amps for guitarists, and I definitely qualify as a tube lover.

One of the things I've observed over 40-odd years of interest in the subject, is how much tube longevity varies depending on the habits of the user.

My father gigged steadily with tube amps by Standel, Fender and others, and he consistently got longer than average life out of his tubes. I didn't get my electronics training until after he stopped gigging out due to health problems, so this is going to be strictly anecdotal evidence, but here goes:

- He was a jazz musician, not a rocker, played a lot of low-volume gigs (theater work, smaller private functions, dinner music, etc.) and as a result, he liked lots of headroom and generally ran his amps well shy of clipping.
- He doubled on bass, and on bass dates, he always put the head on a solid surface away from the cab, to reduce the amount of vibration.
- His amps were carefully kept away from dirt and moisture, and always lived under fitted covers when not in use.
- He never used a roadie in his life (unless you count me), and we was very careful to treat his amps gently. No slamming around in the back of vans, or dropping gear off loading docks.
- He was religious about taking his time going from off to standby. He also tried to reduce the amount of heat cycling in his amps by judicious use of the standby switch, and didn't jump on and off standby all the time.
- He favoured amps that had good reliability records, and robust tubes- no Vox combo's or EL84's for him, for example.
- He also had the good fortune to start and finish his career during the golden age of tubes, when the good stuff was freely available from corner electronics stores like Radio Shack.

Of course many of the same practices will extend the life of your SS gear, as well. Shock, vibration, heat, dirty environments, and hard use (and abuse) will take their toll on any electronic or mechanical device...